Help for a Musician & Producer

[Chief Blur Buster]

Self-diagnosis is usually inaccurate but from what you described -- PWM is definitely one of the very likely culprits for your eye issues. Try testing one of the NON-PRO MacBooks too, if you don't want an external display; since they generally are PWM-free. MiniLED=PWM (much, much more than OLED).

I tried the MacBook Air 13” and 15” M4 and they triggered what I can only describe as a borderline seizure (I am not a diagnosed epileptic). They allegedly do not have PWM and are IPS LCD. The 15” was worse than the 13” - I barely made it through setup. It was a terrifying experience, to be honest.

This “gray color flicker” as others have dubbed it was the only thing that I found on camera. It is the only commonality I have found amongst IPS LCD Macs going back to the 2015 15” MBP that seems to be present on these otherwise “flicker free” devices. I recorded a 240 fps slow motion video of it here: https://streamable.com/v15msr

Additional video of my 2019 iMac 21.5” 4K Retina that was previously usable before I got reinfected with COVID: https://streamable.com/nx4vd5

And here is the 2015 15” MBP doing the same thing: https://streamable.com/sxkrio

The 2022 13” M2 MAcBook Pro Touchbar is the only Mac I found that does not have this flicker, and is the one I’m currently testing. It is the most tolerable by far - as in I can look at it for more than a few seconds - but still seems to be giving some residual symptoms like eye fatigue, pressure in the middle of forehead, and as I’ve described previously, some sort of nervous system involvement. I’m stumped as to what this could be beyond dithering or PWM that isn’t visible on camera.

I’ve enlisted many others on Reddit and we’ve detected this flicker on iMacs, iPads, and an array of Intel and Apple Silicon MacBooks. These are folks who could not use the MiniLED MacBook Pros and iPads and picked up LCD MacBook Airs and iPad Airs only to be unable to tolerate those as well. This is the only thing we’ve been able to find.

Unfortunately you have to start somewhere. I almost guarantee you will need to test at least 3 or 4 screens (possibly more) before you are satisfied.

So, due to that -- What is your budget? (This helps selects left field products to try) Are you able to travel? (to demo screens at a store like Best Buy). Are you able to borrow screens? (This helps broaden the net). Are you willing to do Amazon returns? (This will allow refunds that you can use to purchase the next screen if there is a problem).

There are extreme left field options available
- Your favourite television (you can connect a computer to a TV)
- One older CCFL LCD
- One desktop OLED (avoids PWM that some mobile OLEDs are afflicted by)
- One non-MiniLED LCD (MiniLED is great, but they have PWM which can affect eyestrain)
- One extreme Hz display (just in case you have a motion blur trigger)
- One e-ink displays (there are now desktop e-ink displays)
- Test out glossy too

I actually did what you suggested when I tested the 2025 13” MacBook Air M4 back in April. A lovely gentleman at Micro Center in Northern New Jersey took me around and we plugged into a bunch of monitors. They unfortunately didn’t have many true 8-bit monitors (that they could verify, at least). But we did run through the gamut: IPS, VA, OLED.

The problem I have had with testing both devices and monitors in-store is that the lighting environment (usually fluorescent or LED) is unlike my own personal lighting at home and usually triggers symptoms on its own. The Apple Store, for example, causes the same seizure-like symptoms (tachycardia, sweating, feeling like my eyes are being “shocked”) as their new laptops. My guess given how meticulous Apple is (the Micro Center guy said Apple sends a specific employee who is in charge of designing and installing the Apple section down to the lighting and placement of devices) that they are somehow matching the tone and PWM frequency of their lights to their devices. Or they’re just low quality. I have been to different Best Buy stores and 1 is even worse than the Apple Store, but the other with older fluorescents is mostly fine.

So my experience at Micro Center was largely a waste beyond discovering that OLED was not suitable (motion sickness, almost passed out) at least the two he showed me. The other problem I have is once I’ve been exposed to a problematic screen the symptoms often last hours, so testing other devices or screens is usually a waste of time as I’ll often be triggered by light of any kind.

A few folks have found success with the 2022 13” MacBook Pro Touchbar M2 laptop. This device has been confirmed to not flicker on gray and uses the older mid-2010s (butterfly keyboard era) Retina screens with the bezels. Apple made two versions of this (M1 and M2) in 2020 and 2022 before discontinuing it. It differs from the MiniLED Pro models with the notch that as you mentioned, have PWM. Notebookcheck determines the PWM frequency is 117kHz (compared to the 14” MiniLED Pro which has 15KHz at all brightness levels) at 56% and lower brightness. This Touchbar MBP is the one I am currently testing and it has been the only one I’ve been able to look at for more than a few seconds.

I’m trying to be as scientific as possible in terms of isolating what the problem may be. As I’ve said what throws me off is that I have used an iPhone 13 - which is OLED and allegedly has a 480Hz PWM frequency - all these years and it is 100% comfortable all the time. I have not looked at this device under microscope or with an Opple light master, so I can’t tell for sure what the modulation depth is or if it dithers - the only test I’ve seen is of the iPhone 14 Pro which does not dither. It also could be that the size of the device is why, but if that were true then I’d be able to use other newer OLED iPhones, which I cannot (they cause trouble focusing and dizziness sometimes). So I’m stumped.

If I were to theorize, it is less about the type of flicker for me but the frequency and the modulation. 480Hz may be low, but if it is relatively stable then is it reasonable to assume it would be comfortable?

It’s also much higher than the frequency that FRC dithering would be at on a 60Hz refresh rate screen, correct? And the gray color flicker is assumed to be occurring at a fairly low frequency to be visible on slow motion camera 240 fps? Please correct me if im off-base here.

I do notice an improvement when True Tone is enabled on the MBP, so I agree blue light is playing a role. But it’s more like seeing a bright light or a bright headlight that makes my eye shut - it doesn’t seem to cause a nervous system reaction in the same way flickering does.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is to identify what range of flicker is the most problematic instead of just guessing as I have been. Or at least to narrow things down to where there is a greater likelihood of success. The X factor in my mind is modern versions of MacOS which pushes 10-bit colors using their ColorSync management. The Stillcolor program attempts to brute force the color depth down to 8-bit, and thus avoid dithering, but no one seems to know for sure whether internal Apple screens are applying their own processing. I noticed that “gray color flicker” was passed on to all the external monitors at Micro Center, which was bizarre. So to me that indicates Apple is trying to maintain a consistency in their display by sending a blended signal of the GPU and the internal display to external monitors. I am curious if the Touchbar MacBook Pro will yield a superior result.

Now as to budget I would say I would prefer to stay within $500. Monitors I have put on my shortlist:

-2013 Apple Thunderbolt Display (I am concerned about transistor leakage, however, but it is glossy)

-Dell S2722DC (allegedly true 8-bit, a standard office monitor)

-Dell Pro 22 Plus (smaller monitor like my iMac)

-LG Ultrafine 4K 24MD4KL-B (Apple compatible from before they released the Studio Display. It is 8-bit + FRC, though)

-Other LG Ultrafine monitors or Ben Q

-iPad utilizing Sidecar

-I am clueless as to OLED options. I did try two at Micro Center but they almost made me pass out. The employee struggled to turn off whatever HDR feature was making them strobe. I was using slow motion camera to observe the flicker and it was really aggressive, so I’m a bit hesitant

Your list is potentially too narrow if you got this intense level of symptoms.

Try adding some additional NON-LCD options to your list if possible. I've seen OLED fall to under $500 occasionally already, so try to include a desktop OLED (desktop OLED are non-PWM, and have brightness dips briefer/shallower than the AC zero crossings of an incandescent light bulb).

LCD projector, LCD television, e-ink display, and other left-field tests away from LCD may be required. The old CCFL displays (including 2013 Thunderbolt) will probably solve your problem.

Since you even get triggered by room lighting, you definitely have confirmed PWM trigger. Stay away from MiniLED as local dimming always use PWM. Try using only monolithic global backlights.

If you are desparate, try e-ink + Reduce Motion. Possibly intentionally switch to a lower Hz (e.g. 24Hz instead of 60Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz). Sometimes getting to a super low Hz gets you away from certain secondary triggers. Things get choppy and maybe a little less comfortable, but sometimes reduces motion sickness for some people. Some prefer high framerates to fix motion sickness, others need low framerate.

Thank you so much!

[AshX]

Self-diagnosis is usually inaccurate but from what you described -- PWM is definitely one of the very likely culprits for your eye issues. Try testing one of the NON-PRO MacBooks too, if you don't want an external display; since they generally are PWM-free. MiniLED=PWM (much, much more than OLED).

I tried the MacBook Air 13” and 15” M4 and they triggered what I can only describe as a borderline seizure (I am not a diagnosed epileptic). They allegedly do not have PWM and are IPS LCD. The 15” was worse than the 13” - I barely made it through setup. It was a terrifying experience, to be honest.

This “gray color flicker” as others have dubbed it was the only thing that I found on camera. It is the only commonality I have found amongst IPS LCD Macs going back to the 2015 15” MBP that seems to be present on these otherwise “flicker free” devices. I recorded a 240 fps slow motion video of it here: https://streamable.com/v15msr

Additional video of my 2019 iMac 21.5” 4K Retina that was previously usable before I got reinfected with COVID: https://streamable.com/nx4vd5

And here is the 2015 15” MBP doing the same thing: https://streamable.com/sxkrio

The 2022 13” M2 MAcBook Pro Touchbar is the only Mac I found that does not have this flicker, and is the one I’m currently testing. It is the most tolerable by far - as in I can look at it for more than a few seconds - but still seems to be giving some residual symptoms like eye fatigue, pressure in the middle of forehead, and as I’ve described previously, some sort of nervous system involvement. I’m stumped as to what this could be beyond dithering or PWM that isn’t visible on camera.

I’ve enlisted many others on Reddit and we’ve detected this flicker on iMacs, iPads, and an array of Intel and Apple Silicon MacBooks. These are folks who could not use the MiniLED MacBook Pros and iPads and picked up LCD MacBook Airs and iPad Airs only to be unable to tolerate those as well. This is the only thing we’ve been able to find.

Unfortunately you have to start somewhere. I almost guarantee you will need to test at least 3 or 4 screens (possibly more) before you are satisfied.

So, due to that -- What is your budget? (This helps selects left field products to try) Are you able to travel? (to demo screens at a store like Best Buy). Are you able to borrow screens? (This helps broaden the net). Are you willing to do Amazon returns? (This will allow refunds that you can use to purchase the next screen if there is a problem).

There are extreme left field options available
- Your favourite television (you can connect a computer to a TV)
- One older CCFL LCD
- One desktop OLED (avoids PWM that some mobile OLEDs are afflicted by)
- One non-MiniLED LCD (MiniLED is great, but they have PWM which can affect eyestrain)
- One extreme Hz display (just in case you have a motion blur trigger)
- One e-ink displays (there are now desktop e-ink displays)
- Test out glossy too

I actually did what you suggested when I tested the 2025 13” MacBook Air M4 back in April. A lovely gentleman at Micro Center in Northern New Jersey took me around and we plugged into a bunch of monitors. They unfortunately didn’t have many true 8-bit monitors (that they could verify, at least). But we did run through the gamut: IPS, VA, OLED.

The problem I have had with testing both devices and monitors in-store is that the lighting environment (usually fluorescent or LED) is unlike my own personal lighting at home and usually triggers symptoms on its own. The Apple Store, for example, causes the same seizure-like symptoms (tachycardia, sweating, feeling like my eyes are being “shocked”) as their new laptops. My guess given how meticulous Apple is (the Micro Center guy said Apple sends a specific employee who is in charge of designing and installing the Apple section down to the lighting and placement of devices) that they are somehow matching the tone and PWM frequency of their lights to their devices. Or they’re just low quality. I have been to different Best Buy stores and 1 is even worse than the Apple Store, but the other with older fluorescents is mostly fine.

So my experience at Micro Center was largely a waste beyond discovering that OLED was not suitable (motion sickness, almost passed out) at least the two he showed me. The other problem I have is once I’ve been exposed to a problematic screen the symptoms often last hours, so testing other devices or screens is usually a waste of time as I’ll often be triggered by light of any kind.

A few folks have found success with the 2022 13” MacBook Pro Touchbar M2 laptop. This device has been confirmed to not flicker on gray and uses the older mid-2010s (butterfly keyboard era) Retina screens with the bezels. Apple made two versions of this (M1 and M2) in 2020 and 2022 before discontinuing it. It differs from the MiniLED Pro models with the notch that as you mentioned, have PWM. Notebookcheck determines the PWM frequency is 117kHz (compared to the 14” MiniLED Pro which has 15KHz at all brightness levels) at 56% and lower brightness. This Touchbar MBP is the one I am currently testing and it has been the only one I’ve been able to look at for more than a few seconds.

I’m trying to be as scientific as possible in terms of isolating what the problem may be. As I’ve said what throws me off is that I have used an iPhone 13 - which is OLED and allegedly has a 480Hz PWM frequency - all these years and it is 100% comfortable all the time. I have not looked at this device under microscope or with an Opple light master, so I can’t tell for sure what the modulation depth is or if it dithers - the only test I’ve seen is of the iPhone 14 Pro which does not dither. It also could be that the size of the device is why, but if that were true then I’d be able to use other newer OLED iPhones, which I cannot (they cause trouble focusing and dizziness sometimes). So I’m stumped.

If I were to theorize, it is less about the type of flicker for me but the frequency and the modulation. 480Hz may be low, but if it is relatively stable then is it reasonable to assume it would be comfortable?

It’s also much higher than the frequency that FRC dithering would be at on a 60Hz refresh rate screen, correct? And the gray color flicker is assumed to be occurring at a fairly low frequency to be visible on slow motion camera 240 fps? Please correct me if im off-base here.

I do notice an improvement when True Tone is enabled on the MBP, so I agree blue light is playing a role. But it’s more like seeing a bright light or a bright headlight that makes my eye shut - it doesn’t seem to cause a nervous system reaction in the same way flickering does.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is to identify what range of flicker is the most problematic instead of just guessing as I have been. Or at least to narrow things down to where there is a greater likelihood of success. The X factor in my mind is modern versions of MacOS which pushes 10-bit colors using their ColorSync management. The Stillcolor program attempts to brute force the color depth down to 8-bit, and thus avoid dithering, but no one seems to know for sure whether internal Apple screens are applying their own processing. I noticed that “gray color flicker” was passed on to all the external monitors at Micro Center, which was bizarre. So to me that indicates Apple is trying to maintain a consistency in their display by sending a blended signal of the GPU and the internal display to external monitors. I am curious if the Touchbar MacBook Pro will yield a superior result.

Now as to budget I would say I would prefer to stay within $500. Monitors I have put on my shortlist:

-2013 Apple Thunderbolt Display (I am concerned about transistor leakage, however, but it is glossy)

-Dell S2722DC (allegedly true 8-bit, a standard office monitor)

-Dell Pro 22 Plus (smaller monitor like my iMac)

-LG Ultrafine 4K 24MD4KL-B (Apple compatible from before they released the Studio Display. It is 8-bit + FRC, though)

-Other LG Ultrafine monitors or Ben Q

-iPad utilizing Sidecar

-I am clueless as to OLED options. I did try two at Micro Center but they almost made me pass out. The employee struggled to turn off whatever HDR feature was making them strobe. I was using slow motion camera to observe the flicker and it was really aggressive, so I’m a bit hesitant

Your list is potentially too narrow if you got this intense level of symptoms.

Try adding some additional NON-LCD options to your list if possible. I've seen OLED fall to under $500 occasionally already, so try to include a desktop OLED (desktop OLED are non-PWM, and have brightness dips briefer/shallower than the AC zero crossings of an incandescent light bulb).

LCD projector, LCD television, e-ink display, and other left-field tests away from LCD may be required. The old CCFL displays (including 2013 Thunderbolt) will probably solve your problem.

Since you even get triggered by room lighting, you definitely have confirmed PWM trigger. Stay away from MiniLED as local dimming always use PWM. Try using only monolithic global backlights.

If you are desparate, try e-ink + Reduce Motion. Possibly intentionally switch to a lower Hz (e.g. 24Hz instead of 60Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz). Sometimes getting to a super low Hz gets you away from certain secondary triggers. Things get choppy and maybe a little less comfortable, but sometimes reduces motion sickness for some people. Some prefer high framerates to fix motion sickness, others need low framerate.

Thank you so much!

Hi Chief,

Thought I’d update you after all these months. I’ve done a significant amount of testing with the exception of OLED, which I am still trying to obtain at home for testing. The biggest roadblock continues to be my budget to purchase displays to test at home.

I tested 4 2022 13” M2 MacBook Pro Touchbar Retina laptops and picked the one that appeared to be the most tolerable. I have attempted to use this laptop for nearly a month. The main symptoms I have with using this laptop is eyes attempting to refocus constantly on the screen whether focusing on text or just looking with a relaxed gaze at the screen. I frequently will get dizzy when even looking at the display from across the room.

I purchased a 2011 27” Apple Thunderbolt Display. Sadly it is W-LED and not CCFL as we had hoped. It is true 8-bit and has no detectable PWM. While this is slightly more usable than the laptop display, when connected it quickly causes the same focusing issues. When playing full screen video I get intense motion sickness. Outputting the laptop at 10-bit causes even more dizziness and occasional visible flickering is visible on the screen. Disabling GPU dithering and setting the output to 8-bit via BetterDisplay prevents this, but certain web pages or apps with certain color GUI’s cause immediate focusing and dizziness similar to that as on the MacBook display. Switching to the sRGB color profile minimizes it somewhat.

13” MacBook Air M1 base model. At first I thought this device was better, as at first it is easier to focus on, but it caused a seizure after 15 minutes of use. Gray color flicker was detected, the same commonality with my previous experience with the MacBook Air M4.

It appears that MacOS’ reliance on temporal dithering is a major trigger. I am considering trying the Eizo CS2740 as it is true 10-bit and PWM free, though the $2000 cost is a significant issue. The Asus OLEDs are also a possibility.

Other displays I’d love to get advice on whether they are worth trying. Note I did try a Kindle to test E-Ink and it was immediately uncomfortable.

-iMac M4 24” (I tested the nano texture version in store and it was quite tolerable)
-iPad Pro 13” M5 as a Sidecar display for the MBP
-2011 13” MBP TN panel
-2012 13” MBP Retina IPS panel
-2018 Mac Mini Intel on older OS to rule out modern MacOS
-High refresh rate displays (any particular recommendations?)

Left field options:

-Apple Studio Display + Mac Studio with high powered chip (I’ve heard success stories)
-Mac Mini + iPad Pro as a “headless remote Mac” using Remote Desktop
-Windows suggestions?
-2006 Apple Cinema Display 30” or smaller: https://support.apple.com/en-us/112528

I’d also love to get some recommendations for specific lighting options that may help to serve as bias lighting and how to ergonomically place displays to minimize side effects of photosensitivity.

As an aside, I have discovered my apartment has dirty power and issues maintaining proper voltage. I wonder if this is affecting displays negatively.

I’m beginning to lose faith this is solvable. The reactions are immediate and severe. Even looking at the Thunderbolt Display on a static page from across the room causes focusing issues and discomfort. My iPhone 13 continues to be usable all day. I can also tolerate self-checkout screens and iPad Pro screens at restaurants. I could tolerate a very large LG OLED TV at Best Buy with no motion sickness or photosensitivity, yet the MiniLED caused motion sickness and regular LED TV focusing issues.

For some reason I find the larger the computer display the more difficult time I have with it, likely because of how much of my field of vision it fills. But if I move far back I have trouble reading the text. I am running the 27” Thunderbolt Display at 1280x720 for HiDPI text clarity with night shift on and low brightness and it is still unusable for more than a few minutes. I don’t know if this is because of the 2nd pane of glass on the panel that creates a bit of a double image (visible when the display is off and you see your reflection). I have tried every setting imaginable.

[kyube]

-High refresh rate displays (any particular recommendations?)

I strongly suggest that you either max out 2 pathways of displays:
• Pixel density (bandwidth / space)
• Vertical frequency (refresh rate / latency / time)

1st path:
Upcoming 27" 5K +165Hz models:
27KRAW16, 27GM950B, XG27JCG

27-32" 4K 240Hz OLED displays: Find whichever is cheapest in your region.

The 2nd path:
+480Hz options:
271QR X50, FO27Q5P, AG276QKD2, 271QRX — QD-OLED
PG27AQWP, 27GX790A, PG27AQDP, Inzone M10s — WOLED

Considering your write-up, you might be more sensitive to eye-tracked motion blur, slow G2G RT's or the stroboscopic effect more than anything else.

I’d also love to get some recommendations for specific lighting options that may help to serve as bias lighting and how to ergonomically place displays to minimize side effects of photosensitivity.

DC-powered incandescent bulbs or a LED bulb from here
Bias lighting behind the display is also a good starter

I have been to many doctors and actually had the Spike Protein panel done by the doctor who helped Dave Navarro of Jane’s Addiction. It showed I had no spike in the blood, but my T-Cells are virtually nonexistent. I’m trying to address everything, but any doctor who knows anything doesn’t take insurance…that spike test alone was $1000.

i also strongly suggest that you pursue the path of healing your body as much as possible with peptides or other nootropics, but only with a professional guiding you

[AshX]

I strongly suggest that you either max out 2 pathways of displays:
• Pixel density (bandwidth / space)
• Vertical frequency (refresh rate / latency / time)

1st path:
Upcoming 27" 5K +165Hz models:
27KRAW16, 27GM950B, XG27JCG

27-32" 4K 240Hz OLED displays: Find whichever is cheapest in your region.

The 2nd path:
+480Hz options:
271QR X50, FO27Q5P, AG276QKD2, 271QRX — QD-OLED
PG27AQWP, 27GX790A, PG27AQDP, Inzone M10s — WOLED

Considering your write-up, you might be more sensitive to eye-tracked motion blur, slow G2G RT's or the stroboscopic effect more than anything else.

Thank you so much for these recommendations! Prior to COVID I did try a 2018 Mac Mini with an external and returned it for my 4K iMac because of the PPI clarity issues with text especially.

I read up on those 5K 27” panels and rumor has it they are being released because manufacturing has kicked up for the next 5K and 6K Apple panels. MiniLED seems like a little bit of a concern.

DC-powered incandescent bulbs or a LED bulb from here
Bias lighting behind the display is also a good starter

Any recommendations for bias lighting as far as lighting options? Someone recommended a Xiaomi light but I believe others had issues with it. I’ve had no luck finding incandescents, despite the reversal on the ban. I currently use the GE Relax HD LED bulbs and they don’t seem to cause issues, but they’re not very bright, which is great in a bedroom but difficult in the living area where the computer is.

i also strongly suggest that you pursue the path of healing your body as much as possible with peptides or other nootropics, but only with a professional guiding you

I’ve spent thousands on doctors of all specialties. Everyone is stumped. I was diagnosed with binocular vision dysfunction, deficient smooth pursuit eye movements, and bilateral photophobia by an optometrist in September. She trialed filters and syntonics which were not tolerated. Didn’t mention vision therapy or prisms, instead recommending I try to see a functional medicine doctor. I’ve yet to find one who doesn’t seem like a charlatan in the NYC area. I need to make money in order to afford to see doctors, so that’s essentially why I’m trying to find a workable screen for now and hopefully that will enable me to have more resources to improve my underlying health. Only in America.

Can you offer any advice or thoughts as to primary triggers? I know Chief shared his opinion, but I do believe I’ve gathered additional info since then. What I find odd is the immediacy of the response to these LCD screens I have been trying for the past month. I tried the approach of trying to get used to them a little every other day, then every day, but all it did was gradually increase the intensity of the symptoms until I stopped using them. I wasn’t spending long either - sometimes only 5 minutes, sometimes 10-15 total over the course of an hour spaced out.

I would write myself off as a lost cause, except my iPhone 13 is comfortable at any brightness and any distance. I don’t have many problems reading books or printed text. I have a 2022 Chevy Malibu and while the older touchscreen isn’t something I’d want to read a book on, it doesn’t cause severe symptoms looking at it during the day or at night. I can order for a minute or two at my local Shake Shack. They updated their iPad Pros a few months ago and at first I got the telltale dithering symptoms: tachycardia and issues focusing. They’ve largely subsided now and are fine. It’s a short period of time, yes, but interesting.

The only commonality between all the computers I’ve tried is they’re IPS LCD. I tried my mother’s Dell Latitude. It was pretty much fine on Windows 10 but 11 causes the same focusing issues as MacOS.

My gut says it’s low frequency flicker that is the primary trigger, particularly in the 15-60Hz range. Brightness, especially on these newer Macs, is simultaneously too bright and harsh and yet not bright enough. Modern MacOS is clearly playing a big role with whatever dithering and processing it is pumping out even to external displays. Maybe polarization is a trigger - I can’t use polarized sunglasses. The iPhone is circular polarized. The Macs are linear.

Is this hopeless? All I’d like to do is work again in music production with Avid Pro Tools. I don’t care about gaming or watching movies. I just want to work.

[AshX]

I wanted to update you all, particularly

and

I tested several screens today at Best Buy. My methodology was to test first with my unpolarized sunglasses and if somewhat tolerable then remove them. I also brought a pair of polarized sunglasses to test for polarization. Every TV and display I tested was vertically polarized. It seemed not to make much of a difference.

What I tested:

-3 W-LED OLED TVs (2 LG, 1 Samsung)
-2 QD OLED TVs
-1 QLED MiniLED TV
-5 IPS displays (HP, Dell, Lenovo) of varying refresh rates with Windows 11
-1 QD OLED monitor and 1 WOLED monitor
-iPad Pro 11” M5
-MacBook Pro 14” M5
-MacBook Air 15” M4
-iMac M4 with a nanotexture and glossy
-Apple Studio Display glossy

OLEDs were horrible. Couldn’t focus and eye pain. MiniLED awful. All the IPS were uncomfortable. iPad Pro was hell and caused horrific tachycardia. MacBook Air just as bad. 14” MBP had a less saturated image but the ProMotion VRR was bad. iMacs were bad. Nanotexture was hard to read.

Apple Studio Display wasn’t good on the Mac Mini running Tahoe. I connected my 13” MacBook Pro M2 running Monterey 12.4 and it was better. When I disabled dithering and sent an 8-bit output via BetterDisplay, I did not get symptoms. I could look at the display.

The tachycardia from the OLEDs and Macs was so bad I thought I was going to have a heart attack. No, I am not being dramatic. I had my mom there with me and felt like I was going to pass out.

I’m sorry, but I’ve tested enough devices and screens over the past year to know that flicker is my main trigger. Dithering on Apple devices is at 15Hz via GPU and 30Hz via TCON FRC. There are people who have proven this empirically. It’s not a guess, and it’s within the U.S. Department of Energy’s risk zone within 1% modulation of those frequencies. I would invite anyone here to please test these Apple devices because you will see they are unlike anything else on the market.

I also suspect other things like glare, voltage fluctuations that exacerbate the MacBook Airs flicker, for example, as well as display sharpness and saturation also play a role. Perhaps even polarization. But therein lies the difference between more typical eyestrain and severe physiological reactions in both medically susceptible individuals and healthy individuals. It is shocking, but I don’t know how many times I have to experience this before people start believing me and others.

Anyway. I’m all ears for suggestions but it seems to me this Apple Studio Display or the Eizo CS2740 may be my best bet. I’ve tried to go left-field, Chief, but OLED is a no-go, at least in its current form.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Anyway. I’m all ears for suggestions but it seems to me this Apple Studio Display or the Eizo CS2740 may be my best bet. I’ve tried to go left-field, Chief, but OLED is a no-go, at least in its current form.

You did a good spread of display types.

I can confirm you're a definite population outlier on display comfort issues.

Is this hopeless? All I’d like to do is work again in music production with Avid Pro Tools. I don’t care about gaming or watching movies. I just want to work.

Based on your results, I also suggest trying an eink (paper) computer monitor which has already successfully helped people like you:

Here's the most popular 25" eink model:

shop.boox.com/products/boox-mira-procolor-version

It's like an Amazon Kindle, except it's a whole flippin' computer monitor. I can confirm high success rate with recommending eink monitors for people like you. It should be fine for music production situations like Avid Pro Tools, web browsing, Office documents, even if not very good for video situations (eink ghosting).

Also, you can potentially consider Android tablets that use eink displays: https://shop.boox.com/collections/eink-tablet
These runs standard Android apps, including music composition apps.

The frontlights in some of these can be a trigger for some so keep them turned off and use your favourite ambient lighting for totally natural light of your preference: Choose your favourite ergonomic light source separately from the display. Being that said, if you opt for the built-in frontlights in these for nighttime use, make sure those are PWM-free. (In general Boox's frontlight systems are PWM-free but will never be as bright as LCD/OLED).

Another idea is to try an older used CCFL computer monitor (non-LED) of the PWM-free variety, run them at 100% brightness (to avoid PWM) and use Windows utilities as the brightness dimming method (e.g. Brightness via display calibration utilities).

[AshX]

Anyway. I’m all ears for suggestions but it seems to me this Apple Studio Display or the Eizo CS2740 may be my best bet. I’ve tried to go left-field, Chief, but OLED is a no-go, at least in its current form.

You did a good spread of display types.

I can confirm you're a definite population outlier on display comfort issues.

Is this hopeless? All I’d like to do is work again in music production with Avid Pro Tools. I don’t care about gaming or watching movies. I just want to work.

Based on your results, I also suggest trying an eink (paper) computer monitor which has already successfully helped people like you:

Here's the most popular 25" eink model:

shop.boox.com/products/boox-mira-procolor-version

It's like an Amazon Kindle, except it's a whole flippin' computer monitor. I can confirm high success rate with recommending eink monitors for people like you. It should be fine for music production situations like Avid Pro Tools, web browsing, Office documents, even if not very good for video situations (eink ghosting).

Also, you can potentially consider Android tablets that use eink displays: https://shop.boox.com/collections/eink-tablet
These runs standard Android apps, including music composition apps.

The frontlights in some of these can be a trigger for some so keep them turned off and use your favourite ambient lighting for totally natural light of your preference: Choose your favourite ergonomic light source separately from the display. Being that said, if you opt for the built-in frontlights in these for nighttime use, make sure those are PWM-free. (In general Boox's frontlight systems are PWM-free but will never be as bright as LCD/OLED).

Another idea is to try an older used CCFL computer monitor (non-LED) of the PWM-free variety, run them at 100% brightness (to avoid PWM) and use Windows utilities as the brightness dimming method (e.g. Brightness via display calibration utilities).

Thanks for responding, Chief. I am aware of E-Ink. Do they hold up with animations like mixer fader movement? I know you have to clear them a lot to get rid of afterimages. I did try a Kindle at my local Barnes & Noble a while back and didn’t find it particularly comfortable.

I used to use an HP w1907 which I believe is a CCFL TN 6-bit+FRC glossy monitor. They’re dirt cheap on eBay. Perhaps that’s worth a try?

I believe the Apple Cinema Displays from 2006 are CCFL, the 30” and 24”. Is there anything in particular I should be looking for as far as making sure they’re in good condition?

What about the AOC Q27G4SL/WS? It’s a brand new circularly polarized IPS display. I’d have to import it, but I wonder if that might make a difference.

Where I’d really like to get your perspective - as well as other veterans here - is theoretically why it is I can use not just my own OLED iPhone 13, but other OLED iPhone 13’s, all day and night with no problems whatsoever. This only goes for the models made in 2021/2022. The 2023 panels are uncomfortable and appear to have horrible modulation depth for their PWM. The waveforms also are different.

E-Ink is an extreme solution, which comes with its own issues like dithering. I’ve considered RLCD but it seems like it could induce more strain indoors.

What confuses me is I have no problem using the iPhone 13 or my CarPlay touch screen in my 2022 Chevy Malibu, nor self-checkout kiosks at CVS and grocery stores. I also could use an iPad Pro at Shake Shack to order until they updated the app and operating system and now I get the same motion sickness and tachycardia that I’ve connected to Apple’s dithering algorithm.

You’ve offered your help to many over the years here on Blur Busters. Have you noticed any commonalities between changes in display technology over the past decade and a rise in difficulty using said displays? Obviously I am a somewhat unique and some may argue, extreme case, as COVID was the singular trigger both in 2022 and 2024. Flicker and total light output (voltage/brightness/blue light) seem to be the main triggers. We’re obviously moving into more of a neurology/nervous system and visual system discussion but I’m not alone in this and if Reddit and Apple forums are any indication, more and more people are being affected.

[kyube]

What I tested:
-3 W-LED OLED TVs (2 LG, 1 Samsung)
-2 QD OLED TVs
-1 QLED MiniLED TV
-5 IPS displays (HP, Dell, Lenovo) of varying refresh rates with Windows 11
-1 QD OLED monitor and 1 WOLED monitor
-iPad Pro 11” M5
-MacBook Pro 14” M5
-MacBook Air 15” M4
-iMac M4 with a nanotexture and glossy
-Apple Studio Display glossy

It's a bit difficult to give a proper conclusion on a display's comfort when testing in-stores, as the environment has changed..
Not only that, you might have a "carry over" effect, where strain from a previous display may carry onto another display and cloud your perception.

The light bulbs in those stores may contribute severely to your perception, as they usually sport low frequency multi-strobe PWM dimming.

Have you considered trying older OS' variants (e.g.: W7, MacOS 10.15 or older with a Mac Mini 2017 etc.) with a specific set of displays just to perhaps iron out any potential OS-related issue?

I used to use an HP w1907 which I believe is a CCFL TN 6-bit+FRC glossy monitor. They’re dirt cheap on eBay. Perhaps that’s worth a try?

I would suggest against that model, if you're willing to go down the CCFL backlight route.
The PPI and refresh rate on those panels are grossly low...
Try finding a 120Hz CCFL model (e.g.: Samsung 2233RZ had one IIRC)
I'm unaware whether there were any 4K CCFL-based options available to the consumer.

̶I̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶o̶l̶a̶r̶i̶z̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶c̶u̶l̶p̶r̶i̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶p̶a̶t̶h̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶b̶e̶n̶e̶f̶i̶t̶s̶,̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶P̶h̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶r̶e̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶i̶r̶c̶u̶l̶a̶r̶ ̶p̶o̶l̶a̶r̶i̶z̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶A̶F̶A̶I̶K̶ (e.g.: my S9+ is linearly polarized)
I stand corrected, I didn't read that you've noted that it has circular polarization.
I would explore that pathway then, but exhaust the cheaper paths first (e.g.: older OS, either with a older MacMini or W7; CCFL 120Hz glossy models, then new circular polarization LCDs)

[Chief Blur Buster]

What confuses me is I have no problem using the iPhone 13 or my CarPlay touch screen in my 2022 Chevy Malibu, nor self-checkout kiosks at CVS and grocery stores. I also could use an iPad Pro at Shake Shack to order until they updated the app and operating system and now I get the same motion sickness and tachycardia that I’ve connected to Apple’s dithering algorithm.

You’ve offered your help to many over the years here on Blur Busters. Have you noticed any commonalities between changes in display technology over the past decade and a rise in difficulty using said displays? Obviously I am a somewhat unique and some may argue, extreme case, as COVID was the singular trigger both in 2022 and 2024. Flicker and total light output (voltage/brightness/blue light) seem to be the main triggers. We’re obviously moving into more of a neurology/nervous system and visual system discussion but I’m not alone in this and if Reddit and Apple forums are any indication, more and more people are being affected.

Yes, more posts.
But is it more common? I don't know.
There's multiple angles:

1. It's not new. 1990s with CRT vs LCD. Back in the BBS/CompuServe/Usenet days, there were many people who could never use a CRT and had to pay lots of money for the early LCDs or use an LCD laptop.

2. Increased awareness = more people posts about it.

3. Increased online users = the outliers who couldn't earlier post now could post because there's more display choices today than in the past

_____

Yes, older used displays are definitely one viable option too.

Older CCFL-lit Apple displays definitely are coveted. I know some people buy them to solve this kind of problem.

Another approach is you can cast your Windows desktop to an iPhone or iPad.

Just install an app such as "Duet" on your IPad, and it becomes a Miracast client: See your Windows desktop.

The older iPad Pro's can be available on eBay for relatively cheap, but make sure it's still on that older iOS (or that the older iOS is still restorable via jumping through various hoops).

Even using a casting app an old obsolete iMac (27" Intel iMac from year 2015 with PWM-free LED backlight, though subject to IPS / FRC behaviors). Repurposing the screen as a casting-based or network-based computer monitor by installing an app on them. Just remember to keep them mainly on a firewalled LAN, or peer-to-peer connection, and avoid using the Internet on those unsupported MacOS systems with no security updates. They can become Windows/Linux computer monitors via casting method.

You could also visit your local thrift stores/used computer stores/etc -- or check your Facebook Marketplace/etc -- and check for 10-to-15-year-old LCD displays and try them out for cheap, even in-store (if you bring a laptop). Or see if you can grab some panels from your local electronics recycling center before they get broken up.

[bobbie424242]

The annoying thing with eye strain is that it is so difficult to find the cause as there is a myriad things that can potentially cause it (more probably a combination of them) and everyone is different.

It is kind of sad that the only way to try overcome it or reduce it is through empirical testing of various things.
To the point that it sometimes leads people into endless experiments, obsession and sometimes borderline conspiracy theories (see ledstrain.org).
For one thing, it shows how little we know about eye vision and its interaction with a monitor.

I've been on that quest to reduce eye strain since forever, having moderate eye strain using LCD panels. All I know is that it does not happen when I read on my Boox Page, a 7" e-ink e-reader with a stunning 300ppi display. But e-ink has many drawbacks and not suitable for many types of work. I've been toying with the idea of buying a 25" e-ink black and white monitor, but for know discouraged by the price ($1600+) and doubting about whether I would enjoy working on it or not.