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Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 07 Feb 2019, 22:53

Notty_PT wrote:There is nothing possible to solve the AlienWare AW2518HF overshoot problems on bright colours.

Only partially true -- the dynamic range reduce trick helps partially.

To reduce most of the bright-colors ghosting issue (use NVIDIA Control Panel, not monitor OSD adjustments) to reduce your pixel brightness range 0 thru 255 (digital colors range) to roughly 0 thru 210 .... or 0 thru 230. Or even better lop both ends of your range via adjustments like 15-230 or thereabouts. It's often done by lowering the contrast slider while raising the brightness slider a bit or even better, reduce both ends of your range (e.g. RGB. Digital brightness adjustment, and not backlight brightness adjustment. That forces the monitor to use only the overdrive-friendly colors, and thus makes it better. Basically, you need to force your graphics card to never digitally transmit the brightest pixel colors over the cable, so that the monitor is using only the overdrive-friendly colors. It wrecks contrast ratio, but it solves ghosting problem 50%-90% on some of my screens.

Instructions for dynamic range reduction for reduced ghosting: Go to NVIDIA Control Panel -> Adjust Desktop color settings -> Use NVIDIA settings -> Slide both "Brightness" and "Contrast" downwards in NVIDIA Control Panel. They both default +50%. Lower both to same settings if you only want to chop the top end of your color range. Contrast should be slightly lower than Brightness if you're chopping both ends of your color range. The final settings would be closer to usually Brightness=+40% and Contrast=+30%. Or try Brightness=+30% and Contrast=+10%.[/b] This brightens your blacks and darkens your whites without touching your backlight, forcing the monitor's overdrive to avoid the most problematic ghosty pixel colors. This range-reduce trick works best in conjunction with moderate overdrive (e.g. BenQ AMA High) or dynamic overdrive (e.g. NVIDIA GSYNC), but can also partially help non-dynamically-overdriven FreeSync monitors too.

Sometimes you only need to narrow the colors range a bit. Other times you need to reduce the range massively. But, it's one extra tool in a toolbox of tweaks of workarounds.

It's a band-aid, yes.
And it's a workaround, yes.
Yes, it worsens contrast ratios (dims your whites without dimming your blacks)
And it requires properly understanding it's digital brightness and not backlight brightness that you need to adjust.
And yes, it is a monitor flaw.
But it dramatically improves ghostng for many colors.
Which makes false the statement, "There is nothing possible".

Also, I should stress that the AW2518HF has no dynamic overdrive. For those sensitive to ghosting, I highly recommend the real-brand GSYNC and run it in true GSYNC mode if you're a ghosting-sensitive person. It helps massively in ghosting quality at fluctuating & lower frame rates.

As a result, AW2518H (no F suffix) has better VRR motion clarity than AW2518HF. While AW2518H 144fps might not always be better than the best 144Hz monitors, the 144fps on it at 240Hz true-dynamic-overdriven NVIDIA's GSYNC looks much better than several 144Hz monitors anyway such as Acer GN246HL and a few other ghosty 144Hz monitors, for example.

So many great honest Amazon reviews about 240Hz from former 144Hz users (4.5 stars too), not everyone is fluctuating-Hz-ghosting sensitive. For exqample, a review from that tearing-intolerant person for example, show for that person prioritizes lack of tearing visibility above all else (even ghosting).

One needs to be armed with the knowledge of what you're picky about, and make sure you buy the monitor that you are most happy about. Whether it's staying 144Hz or making the leap to 240Hz.
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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby andrelip » 07 Feb 2019, 22:54

Notty_PT wrote:There is nothing possible to solve the AlienWare AW2518HF overshoot problems on bright colours. Not VRR or any special custom resolutions. Please guys do not spread misinformation and don´t make other users buy a product by mistake.

I have an AW2518HF. Also at 220fps cap the monitor will be even worse overdrive wise, because these panels are only acceptable at 237fps/240fps, near the default refresh rate. With that being said, is a much better monitor than other competitors like Benq or AOC models, but miles behind Asus XG248Q for example.


You are the one spreading misinformation. Do you want me to record a video? I can prove that.
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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 07 Feb 2019, 22:56

Notty_PT wrote:Please guys do not spread misinformation and don´t make other users buy a product by mistake.

andrelip wrote:You are the one spreading misinformation. Do you want me to record a video? I can prove that.

Enough you two. No "misinformation-blaming" escalation, please.

To help de-escalate things, I'll be happy to provide friendly corrections.

Move on, go back to the original topic "Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware" -- the topic title.
Or create a separate topic thread about monitor flaws, ghosting flaws, and 240Hz flaws.

Some of us are more sensitive to lag than ghosting. Some of us are more sensitive to tearing than blur. Others are more sensitive to stutters than brightness. Sometimes it's only a slight outweigh for one of us. For others, it's a massive dealbreaker outweigh. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Cheers,
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors
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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby Notty_PT » 07 Feb 2019, 23:36

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
Notty_PT wrote:There is nothing possible to solve the AlienWare AW2518HF overshoot problems on bright colours.

Only partially true -- the dynamic range reduce trick helps partially.

To reduce most of the bright-colors ghosting issue (use NVIDIA Control Panel, not monitor OSD adjustments) to reduce your pixel brightness range 0 thru 255 (digital colors range) to roughly 0 thru 210 .... or 0 thru 230. Or even better lop both ends of your range via adjustments like 15-230 or thereabouts. It's often done by lowering the contrast slider while raising the brightness slider a bit or even better, reduce both ends of your range (e.g. RGB. Digital brightness adjustment, and not backlight brightness adjustment. That forces the monitor to use only the overdrive-friendly colors, and thus makes it better. Basically, you need to force your graphics card to never digitally transmit the brightest pixel colors over the cable, so that the monitor is using only the overdrive-friendly colors. It wrecks contrast ratio, but it solves ghosting problem 50%-90% on some of my screens.

Instructions for dynamic range reduction for reduced ghosting: Go to NVIDIA Control Panel -> Adjust Desktop color settings -> Use NVIDIA settings -> Slide both "Brightness" and "Contrast" downwards in NVIDIA Control Panel. They both default +50%. Lower both to same settings if you only want to chop the top end of your color range. Contrast should be slightly lower than Brightness if you're chopping both ends of your color range. The final settings would be closer to usually Brightness=+40% and Contrast=+30%. Or try Brightness=+30% and Contrast=+10%.[/b] This brightens your blacks and darkens your whites without touching your backlight, forcing the monitor's overdrive to avoid the most problematic ghosty pixel colors. This range-reduce trick works best in conjunction with moderate overdrive (e.g. BenQ AMA High) or dynamic overdrive (e.g. NVIDIA GSYNC), but can also partially help non-dynamically-overdriven FreeSync monitors too.

Sometimes you only need to narrow the colors range a bit. Other times you need to reduce the range massively. But, it's one extra tool in a toolbox of tweaks of workarounds.

It's a band-aid, yes.
And it's a workaround, yes.
Yes, it worsens contrast ratios (dims your whites without dimming your blacks)
And it requires properly understanding it's digital brightness and not backlight brightness that you need to adjust.
And yes, it is a monitor flaw.
But it dramatically improves ghostng for many colors.
Which makes false the statement, "There is nothing possible".

Also, I should stress that the AW2518HF has no dynamic overdrive. For those sensitive to ghosting, I highly recommend the real-brand GSYNC and run it in true GSYNC mode if you're a ghosting-sensitive person. It helps massively in ghosting quality at fluctuating & lower frame rates.

As a result, AW2518H (no F suffix) has better VRR motion clarity than AW2518HF. While AW2518H 144fps might not always be better than the best 144Hz monitors, the 144fps on it at 240Hz true-dynamic-overdriven NVIDIA's GSYNC looks much better than several 144Hz monitors anyway such as Acer GN246HL and a few other ghosty 144Hz monitors, for example.

So many great honest Amazon reviews about 240Hz from former 144Hz users (4.5 stars too), not everyone is fluctuating-Hz-ghosting sensitive. For exqample, a review from that tearing-intolerant person for example, show for that person prioritizes lack of tearing visibility above all else (even ghosting).

One needs to be armed with the knowledge of what you're picky about, and make sure you buy the monitor that you are most happy about. Whether it's staying 144Hz or making the leap to 240Hz.


On this case there is nothing to agree or disagree chief. The dude is saying that he solved the AW2518HF inverse ghosting problem and I´m simply telling you it is impossible to be solved. At best he can make it less obvious to the point it doesn´t bother him and that´s it. I have this monitor for almost 2 years now and I know the drill with it. You can check countless videos on youtube about it, including this one, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnaK71wvLv0

I think we should warn every potential buyer that comes to the forum asking for advice, about what he may find on the model he buys. I´m not a fanboy of any brand/model. I have a lot of them and I try my best to tell the truth about products. However some people only have 1 model and try their best to defend it, because they bouight it. This happens with people that has AMD gpus or Nvidia gpus, or People that got Intel instead of AMD, xbox or ps4, etc etc.

There are a lot of tweaks to hide overshoot/overdrive problems, including those you mentioned; on this AW2518HF the best option is activating FreeSync now with Nvidia GPUs, reduce the contrast to 30 and use normal overdrive. But the problem is still there and it still affects me; I can still spot it. Meanwhile on my Asus XG248Q 240hz I don´t have these obvious problems. Altho there is overshoot aswell, but not this inverse awful ghosting that AW2518HF has.
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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 08 Feb 2019, 00:20

Notty_PT wrote:However some people only have 1 model and try their best to defend it, because they bouight it. This happens with people that has AMD gpus or Nvidia gpus, or People that got Intel instead of AMD, xbox or ps4, etc etc.

I've seen those "120Hz is worthless" posts from year 2009 in the forums before the Blur Busters days. Of the original Samsung 2233RZ and ASUS VG236H from ten years ago, the world's first 120Hz gaming monitors had more lag than the best 60Hz displays, and the pixel response wasn't always faster than the best 60Hz monitors either! But many still absolutely LOVED those displays to pieces. Because people kept buying these displays, manufacturers finally came out with better 120Hz and 144Hz displays, including the one sitting on your desks.

There's obviously been teething problems (like how I discovered frameskipping in early 240Hz monitors from year 2017).

The user satisfaction ratio (Amazon reviews, Google reviews) of many other models of 240Hz monitors are certainly better than the AW2518HF, so for the ghosting-sensitive I would certainly steer towards other 240Hz monitors -- even AW2518H (non-F) is superior to the AW2518HF and (IMHO) well worth the GSYNC cost premium if you're blur/ghosting sensitive. Though not everyone can afford that.

Alas,

Let's briefly look at mainstream. Some people don't care about DVD versus HDTV quality but cares more about the color. Others are really picky about the audio and buy a big, great sound system! Yet more really don't care about the motion blur but get headaches from stutters or 3D glasses. All that mainstream stuff.

However, almost everything here is bleeding edge. Even today, 144Hz is considered bleeding edge stuff (and so is 240Hz). Only finally hitting parts of mainstream (120fps HFR, the 120Hz iPads, etc). The even more bleeding edge moves on, 240Hz, the bleeding edge comes with compromises. Even despite the AW2518HF complaints, many are still happy with their AW2518HF and I certainly wouldn't discourage a user (who're more picky about other things) from being happy with their Black Friday Sale AW2518HF that they bought for under 250-300 dollars, cheaper than many 144Hz monitors. Certainly, there's better 240Hz choices now.

On that note: Being Informed & Do Your Homework when shopping for gaming monitors. It's not as easy as choosing socks or toilet paper brands. :D
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors
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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby andrelip » 08 Feb 2019, 07:24

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
Notty_PT wrote:However some people only have 1 model and try their best to defend it, because they bouight it. This happens with people that has AMD gpus or Nvidia gpus, or People that got Intel instead of AMD, xbox or ps4, etc etc.

I've seen those "120Hz is worthless" posts from year 2009 in the forums before the Blur Busters days. Of the original Samsung 2233RZ and ASUS VG236H from ten years ago, the world's first 120Hz gaming monitors had more lag than the best 60Hz displays, and the pixel response wasn't always faster than the best 60Hz monitors either! But many still absolutely LOVED those displays to pieces. Because people kept buying these displays, manufacturers finally came out with better 120Hz and 144Hz displays, including the one sitting on your desks.

There's obviously been teething problems (like how I discovered frameskipping in early 240Hz monitors from year 2017).

The user satisfaction ratio (Amazon reviews, Google reviews) of many other models of 240Hz monitors are certainly better than the AW2518HF, so for the ghosting-sensitive I would certainly steer towards other 240Hz monitors -- even AW2518H (non-F) is superior to the AW2518HF and (IMHO) well worth the GSYNC cost premium if you're blur/ghosting sensitive. Though not everyone can afford that.

Alas,

Let's briefly look at mainstream. Some people don't care about DVD versus HDTV quality but cares more about the color. Others are really picky about the audio and buy a big, great sound system! Yet more really don't care about the motion blur but get headaches from stutters or 3D glasses. All that mainstream stuff.

However, almost everything here is bleeding edge. Even today, 144Hz is considered bleeding edge stuff (and so is 240Hz). Only finally hitting parts of mainstream (120fps HFR, the 120Hz iPads, etc). The even more bleeding edge moves on, 240Hz, the bleeding edge comes with compromises. Even despite the AW2518HF complaints, many are still happy with their AW2518HF and I certainly wouldn't discourage a user (who're more picky about other things) from being happy with their Black Friday Sale AW2518HF that they bought for under 250-300 dollars, cheaper than many 144Hz monitors. Certainly, there's better 240Hz choices now.

On that note: Being Informed & Do Your Homework when shopping for gaming monitors. It's not as easy as choosing socks or toilet paper brands. :D


Notty_PT wrote:The dude is saying that he solved the AW2518HF inverse ghosting problem and I´m simply telling you it is impossible to be solved.


Sorry for the poor quality... I had to hold the cam with one hand and do the things with the other:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmtJgvmd21M

Look the inverse ghost before changing timings on CRU =)

Let's do that in slow-motion:
[default timings and no sync] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJbUUTq55vg
[240hz lcd reduced and g-sync] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f9liGZDYvY
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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby RealNC » 08 Feb 2019, 12:26

andrelip wrote:Look the inverse ghost before changing timings on CRU =)

Let's do that in slow-motion:
[default timings and no sync] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJbUUTq55vg
[240hz lcd reduced and g-sync] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f9liGZDYvY

Well, that does indeed look like it solves the issue to me :)
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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby Notty_PT » 08 Feb 2019, 14:48

In fact he just minimized the issues, but they are still there, but you won´t spot it on a video and you might not spot it a lot in real life aswell. I do tho. The first scenario he shown is the absolute worst you could get and is not suppose to happen on most presets even by default. If you reduce contrast to 30 and use response time normal it will reduce the effects even more but I can still spot them on bright colours.

Minimizing the effect is not the same as eliminating the problem, and this monitor will always have bad overshoot on white/bright colours, and specially noticeable in game. And when framerate is not steady or below 240 is even worse, trust me. Is one of the worst 240hz models, reason why it went as low as 260€ here in Europe!
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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby andrelip » 08 Feb 2019, 15:26

Notty_PT wrote:In fact he just minimized the issues, but they are still there, but you won´t spot it on a video and you might not spot it a lot in real life aswell. I do tho. The first scenario he shown is the absolute worst you could get and is not suppose to happen on most presets even by default. If you reduce contrast to 30 and use response time normal it will reduce the effects even more but I can still spot them on bright colours.

Minimizing the effect is not the same as eliminating the problem, and this monitor will always have bad overshoot on white/bright colours, and specially noticeable in game. And when framerate is not steady or below 240 is even worse, trust me. Is one of the worst 240hz models, reason why it went as low as 260€ here in Europe!


The "impossible to solve" inverse ghosting is 100% fixed and the ghosting is pretty good for a non-strobe monitor. Take note that I recorded this video using 960fps so everything is amplified. I have 0 issues with lower fps as long as this fix is active and VRR mode is on. I can record a video showing that too. I tested with everything on default without any calibration to show that the image goes from horrible to clear just by setting the right timings. This monitor also accepts 1/360 scanout speed but that's another subject. Feel free to record a video of the Asus XG248Q to demonstrate how better it is (I'm being honest here since I never saw one).

Being bad at default is really a failure as a project but the monitor is superb when fixed. Here in Brazil we had a thread of 2500+ posts about this monitor and this little trick was a game changer:
https://adrenaline.uol.com.br/forum/thr ... hz.618766/
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Re: Input Lag between Zowie and Alienware?

Postby xXxDieselxXx » 08 Feb 2019, 17:05

I just got mine and applied the ghosting fix and it worked like a charm! I'm loving the IQ and colors of this monitor and coming from a nice Asus MG279Q IPS monitor
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