100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

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JimmyJimmyBTM
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Joined: 12 Aug 2019, 07:54

100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by JimmyJimmyBTM » 10 Dec 2019, 14:57

Hey, I finally bought a 240hz monitor hoping it would fix my previous problem but it didn't.
I am experiencing 100+ ms frametime spikes randomly throughout rounds in Raibow Six Siege.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N7a0qkMiTQ (new pc)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3-spkLwL7Q (old pc)

New pc (old in brackets)

cpu: i7 9700k (9700k bought another one)
motherboard: msi z390 gaming pro carbon (gigabyte z390 aorus elite)
gpu: msi 2080 super ventus ( gigabyte 1080 ti gaming oc)
ram: Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200mhz cl16 16gb 2 stick (Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200mhz cl16 16gb 2 stick bought another set)
psu: Seasonic Focus GX-850 (Cooler Master V Series V750)
ssd: Samsung 860 EVO 500GB SSD with windows install (Samsung 850 EVO 500GB SSD was old windows install)
monitor: omen x 25f (benq xl2411z)

keyboard: for testing purposes am using ducky keyboard from my gf (main is corsair k70 rgb rapidfire without software installed)
Mouse: logitech g502 proteus core (still use same mouse)

I bought a whole new pc and the stutter still remains in rainbow six siege. Installed fresh windows multiple times with only siege installed.
Only thing I haven't ruled out is the mouse and power from my wall.
Have played siege for years and never had 100+ ms frametime spikes and since it's an esport title i bet professionals don't experience those. I'm hoping anyone here knows a fix.

Maybe anyone with similar problems that fixed it by buying a ups?

Thanks for reading!

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 11 Dec 2019, 14:09

I assume this happens even offline & disconnected?

Situation: You had really smooth game and now you're getting frametime spikes you didn't get before -- in the very same game (and same game/patch version).

Sherlock Holmes Longshot Test #1: Can you download and test LatencyMon? It might provide a little more insight to the possible ballpark of the cause. Screenshots are welcome.

Sherlock Holmes Longshot Test #2: Temporarily try 100% CPU and GPU, disable power management. If your computer is disproportionately more powerful than your old one, you might be creating a situation where the CPU or the GPU is maxed out but the other is so underutilized (waiting for the other) that it goes into power-saving mode and adds power-management-induced stalls. When one is maxed-out, and the other is going into power-management, that creates frametime spikes. This does not always happen, but it's a Sherlock Holmes path.
-- A CPU or GPU upgrade sometimes seismically shifts the CPU:GPU utilization ratio, and sometimes the ratio gets so lopsided that one of them starts power managing to save power because it's so idle while the other is busy. Chips actually sometimes turns itself off for 5 milliseconds or 10 milliseconds. Even in the middle of 60 frames per second. The busy chip (CPU/GPU) ends up having to wait for the idle chip (GPU/CPU) to stop sleeping and wake up from its power-management. Voila. Starvation situation. Frametime spikes.

Sherlock Holmes Longshot Test #3: Try adjusting your frame rate cap. Cap your game at 240 frames per second. Cap your game at 60 frames per second. Uncap your frame rate cap. Caps disrupts the CPU:GPU utilization balance, as another route of solving Test #2 above.

Sherlock Holmes Longshot Test #4: Also try temporarily underclocking your hardware by about 10% or 20% -- both your CPU and GPU clock -- it's a shot in the dark but I've seen thermal throttling do it. The temporary underclock can help Sherlock-Holmes are cause. If frametime freezes disappears, you found your problem. Try to improve your cooling so you can stop underclocking. This can be a seasonal effect -- hotter and colder seasons -- if it is worse this time and your you're in the southern hemisphere then that's because it's summer approaching, probably getting hot where you live, creating more thermal throttling. Also, cool down your system (turn it off) for a bit and see if thermal throttling is gone at the beginning of a powerup. If underclocking and/or power-down coolofs, solved your problem temporarily, then:
-- Add a heatsink to your SSD, especially if it's a cheap NVME M.2 SSD
-- Add more fans, better cooling or water cooling for your CPU and/or GPU and/or spinning disks
-- Monitor the temps of everything including your GPU

Note about power noise: Power noise can be a cause, but there are usually easier lower-lying apple causes. Power noise induced frametime spikes is a devilishly HARD troubleshoot. Compare Kindergarten to a Ph.D. That's the difference in troubleshooting difficulty, sometimes. Statistically it's hard to know if it's related, but I know at least one PC that kept ECC'ing itself (Error Correcting Code) because of huge amounts of RFI (Radio-Frequency Interference). I've rarely but not non-zero seen ECC-cascades (chain reactions of multiple microsecond events) go into the multiple-milliseconds, creating momentary freeze/slow moments and human-visible stutter problems. It's almost voodoo. Fast-superslow-Fast-superslow-Fast etc. In the real world, that's frametime spikes. Historically noise made a computer crash but with a modern computer stuffed full of ECC logic (USB buses, PCI Express buses, memory chips, etc) to the brim, it's now possible for RFI-surges to cause temporary stalls instead of crashes. It's very rare and probably NOT the cause of your issue, but it's not a 0% chance. Unfortunately since it's usually not the cause of the problem (but sometimes is), it's so devilishly hard to troubleshoot. If you are a "Just In Case Guy", stay away from cheap generic power supplies, use a good more expensive power-factor 95% efficient computer power supply sometimes helps. Don't wire your USB/DisplayPort/highspeed data cables alongside power wires, along walls (that has hidden power wires behind it), or near transformers (your computer power supply or AC adaptor boxes), so redo your cable management behind your computer and move everything 6 inches away from the wall, just in case there's hidden wires or hidden mains-feed (from the power company). Also test your power for ground faults, that's a major source of RFI that has a ~1%-league chance of Rube Goldberging into a chain-reaction itself into frametime spikes. These may just do 100% squat uselessly, but that 1% chance it helps, definitely does not hurt. I almost guarantee it's a wild goose chase to a red herring, so only approach this in a "Be Prepared Like A Scout" manner. Troubleshoot with easier tests that are lower-lying apples.
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JimmyJimmyBTM
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Joined: 12 Aug 2019, 07:54

Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by JimmyJimmyBTM » 12 Dec 2019, 12:26

Thanks so much for the elaborate explanations!

I have done all the Sherlock Holmes longshot tests, first on my old pc but now also on my new build. Saw a thread on here with someone that also had frametime spikes and also did everything from there before posting this.
Image

Really hoped it wouldn't be a power problem but it seems to be that way. Also no walls here are grounded which is weird, and recently I had a breaker flip 2 times because I plugged/unplugged something from a wall.

Tried having all the cables away from the wall but unfortunately still had spikes, they even happen on the main menu screen which is rendering a simple 3D background with 2 characters.

In a span of about 10 minutes it seems to happen 2 times, sometimes more sometimes not at all.

With an extension cable i've tried power from my kitchen, bathroom, bedroom and main room but the spikes seem to be the same, maybe a bit less using power from the bedroom.
Also use a belkin surge protector and tried one from brennenstuhl that has emi/rfi protection.

Thanks again!!

Calypto
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Joined: 16 Sep 2019, 20:58

Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by Calypto » 12 Dec 2019, 14:59

I doubt power is going to cause 100+ ms stalls. Not impossible, but unlikely. I would first rule out BIOS power-saving options or Windows misconfiguration. You seem to be running a newer version of Windows, but all of the recent builds have been progressively getting worse. Did you run Latencymon while playing the game?

JimmyJimmyBTM
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Joined: 12 Aug 2019, 07:54

Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by JimmyJimmyBTM » 15 Dec 2019, 13:09

Thanks for the reply, I already had optimized my bios and windows but I see a lot of things that I haven't tried in your guide.
Latencymon while playing the game has the same values.
I had the same issue on windows 1803, am now running latest updates.

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jorimt
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by jorimt » 15 Dec 2019, 13:49

JimmyJimmyBTM wrote:
10 Dec 2019, 14:57
Have played siege for years and never had 100+ ms frametime spikes and since it's an esport title i bet professionals don't experience those.
When in doubt, consider the game. Not saying this is the case, but it's very possible any number of game-side updates or even game-side server infrastructure changes could be responsible, either fully or partially for these instances (this sort of thing has been reported in CS:GO as well, with stutter known to come and go, but usually stays :(, with updates), especially since you completely swapped out computers and are still experiencing the identical issue.

Also, what is it that automatically makes some assume eSports pros are having flawless experiences 100% of the time? Sans their typically more expensive setups, everything's ultimately made from the same parts, and they're playing the same games with the same engines, so they undoubtedly encounter the same system and engine-level limitations we non-pro gamers do, including frametime spikes.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Display: Acer Predator XB271HU OS: Windows 10 Pro MB: ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero CPU: i7-8700k GPU: EVGA GTX 1080 Ti FTW3 RAM: 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ @3200MHz

JimmyJimmyBTM
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by JimmyJimmyBTM » 16 Dec 2019, 10:45

Also, what is it that automatically makes some assume eSports pros are having flawless experiences 100% of the time? Sans their typically more expensive setups, everything's ultimately made from the same parts, and they're playing the same games with the same engines, so they undoubtedly encounter the same system and engine-level limitations we non-pro gamers do, including frametime spikes.
I always thought csgo was the ultimate stable game :O
When I think of pro's I guess I just can't imagine such a spike in their game since it would throw off their aim at crucial moments.
Maybe in this case Siege just isn't compatible with a certain combination of parts and windows versions that I'm using.
I once had a problem with Siege completely freezing and shutting down steam, that was because I had a yeti/rode mic(any usb mic) and a logitech g633 headset plugged in at the same time. removing one of those devices fixed it. I now use a 3.5mm headphone.

Does anyone maybe know a good windows optimization or complete optimized installation? And a good frametime spike test, Maybe a program/stress test that is 100% stable and logs when you have frametime spikes?
Because I also notice the same spikes in Battlefield V but I guess that game isn't optimized. Modern warfare is a mess and doesn't use dx11 so I wouldn't know if the spike is because of the system or the game.
I was thinking of csgo but I guess even that could be the engine.

My brother has a 8700k and a 2070 super and his Siege is 100% stable, also his ryzen build is the same.

Thanks for the advice!

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jorimt
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by jorimt » 16 Dec 2019, 11:01

JimmyJimmyBTM wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 10:45
Maybe in this case Siege just isn't compatible with a certain combination of parts and windows versions that I'm using.
If it is the game engine and/or netcode (or even local ISP performance) at fault for frametime spike occurrences such as this, so long as the system in question is otherwise capable of keeping a high, steady framerate, "certain combinations of parts and windows versions" aren't going to change it.
JimmyJimmyBTM wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 10:45
My brother has a 8700k and a 2070 super and his Siege is 100% stable, also his ryzen build is the same.
Just in case, I have to ask, but are you taking his word for it, or have you performed the same tests yourself with the same tools, at length, on his PC, playing it as if it were your own?

Because if not, this sort of thing is highly subjective, and the frametime spikes exhibited in your recordings (which, just as a side note, can sometimes introduce frametime issues as well) were brief and infrequent enough that, believe it or not, less sensitive players may not even notice when playing themselves; I have nearly a couple hundred hours in Siege, and I'm pretty sure I get this sometimes too, but I write it off as a blip in the server, etc.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Display: Acer Predator XB271HU OS: Windows 10 Pro MB: ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero CPU: i7-8700k GPU: EVGA GTX 1080 Ti FTW3 RAM: 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ @3200MHz

JimmyJimmyBTM
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by JimmyJimmyBTM » 16 Dec 2019, 12:48

I did play siege a bit at his main pc but that was before the 2070 super, used afterburner to monitor with power settings disabled because that could make some spikes in early drivers i think.

Also tested packet loss and ping variations during the spikes but it was nothing. I used to have 2 isp's but got rid of one so unfortunately can't test that. I did test a new modem/router.

When aiming during a spike your aim will be like a couple centimeters skipped. Like when you make a panning motion but instead of it being smooth you suddenly skip a couple centimeters depending on your sensetivity and how fast you move. My brother has a very high sensetivity and would probably notice it

I'm also thinking it might just be a server blip, but whenever those happen usually everyone notices it. And for me it happens almost every round, even happens on the main menu where the engine is rendering a 3D scene with 2 character models and a background with some props.

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jorimt
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by jorimt » 16 Dec 2019, 13:22

JimmyJimmyBTM wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 12:48
And for me it happens almost every round, even happens on the main menu where the engine is rendering a 3D scene with 2 character models and a background with some props.
Have you been able to time the intervals on the main menu, or do the occurrences not have a discernible pattern?
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Display: Acer Predator XB271HU OS: Windows 10 Pro MB: ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero CPU: i7-8700k GPU: EVGA GTX 1080 Ti FTW3 RAM: 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ @3200MHz

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