[Power/EMI] I discover why sometime PC become fast and low input lag and otherwise feel high input lag

[Chief Blur Buster]

Since Blur Busters loves opening all kinds of Temporal Pandora Boxes all the time (...Hz|fps|GtG|MPRT|lag|etc...)

Throwing more EMI fuel to the fire, newer GPU ram is now also error-corrected and can lag in performance.

Was watching LinusTechTips today about GPU overclocking (this vid), and...



It's literally, RAM with error-detect-and-retransit, not simple FEC (Forward Error Correction) algorithms of classic ECC memory.

So, yet another error-corrected element in a computer that can also lag. At the tight margins of ultra-high-speed memory that's being pre-overclocked at the factory. Those real tight tolerances.

The complete entire input latency chain, from button-to-photons, necessary has to go through the GPU funnel, so it's relevant to include this factor.

It's not completely inconceivable that we'd see certain specimens of overclocked computers in tempered-glass towers slowing down in realtime as soon as we had a high-EMI device nearby (Such as an old vacuum cleaner or old fridge/drying machine startup nearby behind the wall immediately behind the computer tower). Imagine, overclocked PCs with multiple buses fine-tuned to near its breaking point simultaneously, PCI-Express (error retransmit), GDDRX6 (error retransmit), NVMe (error retransmit), etc, strategically fine-tuned to exactly the breaking point. With all showing ~0.000001% retransmits that could spike to 10%+ retransmits with small EMI sources creating human-visible lag with a nearby old vaccuum cleaner motor or whatnot.

Like an Internet connection suddenly getting 10% packet loss -- except it's your RAM. Your PCI Express. Your NVMe. Trying to retransmit data out of the wazoo. Even if it's nanoseconds, it's lag death by millions of nanoseconds.

<Speculation>
Who knows, later this decade, someone will probably create a viral video about that -- on a computer pushed to its overclocking breaking point (where it becomes suddenly EMI-lag sensitive), like "WATCH THE VACCUUM CLEANER CREATE LAG ON COMPUTER!" or "WATCH MY SMARTPHONE CREATE LAG ON COMPUTER!" whatnot (smartphone in 1-bar reception zone in a phone call or continuous LTE/WiFi-transmit) as they wave the phone towards the computer innards. Perhaps an old electric drill with a spark-generating DC brush motor. Mind you, you'll have to multiple mudane household devices that may nail specific EMI problem frequencies (test quite a few), before you find one that creates weird computer slowdowns. Then create that viral YouTube video and make many industry jaws drop. It'd be funny and sobering at the same time.
P.S. You Youtubers, feel free to give me a shoutout for idea.
</Speculation>

For strong-EMI environments, maybe it is time to buy a full-metal-box computer tower as a "more complete Faraday cage" instead of a temperred glass window, eh?

More error correction layers out of the wazoo.

</Temporal Pandora Box>
ERROR 0001: Failed to execute closing tag. <Temporal Pandora Box> Failed To Close

[diakou]

Since Blur Busters loves opening all kinds of Temporal Pandora Boxes all the time (...Hz|fps|GtG|MPRT|lag|etc...)
</Temporal Pandora Box>
ERROR 0001: Failed to execute closing tag. <Temporal Pandora Box> Failed To Close

Hey, kinda hijacking this thread and I apologize for that, but I wanted to say I really appreciate how you've recently been aiding the "insane" people with your own verifications and backup-claims of possibilities.

I've noticed that a lot of this has always been fueled by wild-goose hunts and (sometimes... honestly insanity) but more often than not there has been many discoveries lately and as things improve, the weakest chain gets more and more clear and we get to notice things more. I'm not sure what I want to call the effect when something is now perceivable and has strong claims/reasonings (but not yet fully scientific proof) but without real discussion there's already tons of naysayers! I wonder if it's because they've been living a lie and want to continue that? I don't know, I don't have the answers to it. A lot of the time people with these kinds of issues have been respectful and try their best to come with as much information as possible and simply discuss. I feel like it is because they crack under the pressure of other people instantly dismissing their info and drawing conclusions of them being insane, thus they lash out with time and become unpleasant. Knowing how human psychology works, the moment these people start acting vile/unpleasant due to them being pushed to the brink, there's now attack of their character in regards to their claims which even further ruins the potential for discoveries. I just find it strange that often people don't even look at the info provided! It's much better if people referred to actual hard-evidence and science when "disproving" these "insane" people. Even though science and evidence can be outdated with new info coming to play, that's why they're always theories and hypotheses and not LAWS in the scientific world.

I have never understood why the burden of proof is on the people asking about X and Y being a possible problem, why is that not a mutual ground? I understand when you make a claim you are now burdened with providing proof, however often the other part also lacks any hard-evidence yet it's now one-sided, even if one is clearly claiming AGAINST the original claim.

Before I went off onto a complete ramble, I just wanted to say that regarding computers and now recently more due to the competitive gaming landscape, Virtual Reality and Cloud Gaming, latency is becoming less "taboo" of a subject and acceptance is opening up rather than fast dismissal based on perceived ill-intention. And it's very nice to see someone such as yourself actually help and aid with things such as;

Framepacing
High DPI vs low DPI
High Polling Rates vs Low Polling Rates
EMI / Power interference for lag insanity
Network lag (explanations of how peering is at play, packet loss etc the whole spiel through commissions)
30hz vs 60hz (now 360hz vs 240hz)
Inputlag mattering in games, more importantly Esports and milliseconds DO matter.
Different "tweaks" and "optimizations" possibly being good and quantifiable (within limits of course)

and many, many more things. It's very nice to see and it makes it feel less like you've already been contracted to shut up by bigger companies when you're directly going against the grain so often if there is plausible potential/findings.

Thank you.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Thank you.

You're welcome!

Certainly will keep manufacturing uncloseable Temporal Pandora Boxes. Maybe should begin selling them on Amazon! Prime Day special. Okay, just kidding.

But seriously, more and more researchers are listening to the Researcher Idea Factory that Blur Busters is, and has cited Blur Busters / TestUFO in almost three dozen peer reviewed researcher papers, many of which I didn't know about until recently:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... o%22&btnG=
(This may be worth forking off to a different thread)

[nick4567]

Since Blur Busters loves opening all kinds of Temporal Pandora Boxes all the time (...Hz|fps|GtG|MPRT|lag|etc...)
</Temporal Pandora Box>
ERROR 0001: Failed to execute closing tag. <Temporal Pandora Box> Failed To Close

Hey, kinda hijacking this thread and I apologize for that, but I wanted to say I really appreciate how you've recently been aiding the "insane" people with your own verifications and backup-claims of possibilities.

I've noticed that a lot of this has always been fueled by wild-goose hunts and (sometimes... honestly insanity) but more often than not there has been many discoveries lately and as things improve, the weakest chain gets more and more clear and we get to notice things more. I'm not sure what I want to call the effect when something is now perceivable and has strong claims/reasonings (but not yet fully scientific proof) but without real discussion there's already tons of naysayers! I wonder if it's because they've been living a lie and want to continue that? I don't know, I don't have the answers to it. A lot of the time people with these kinds of issues have been respectful and try their best to come with as much information as possible and simply discuss. I feel like it is because they crack under the pressure of other people instantly dismissing their info and drawing conclusions of them being insane, thus they lash out with time and become unpleasant. Knowing how human psychology works, the moment these people start acting vile/unpleasant due to them being pushed to the brink, there's now attack of their character in regards to their claims which even further ruins the potential for discoveries. I just find it strange that often people don't even look at the info provided! It's much better if people referred to actual hard-evidence and science when "disproving" these "insane" people. Even though science and evidence can be outdated with new info coming to play, that's why they're always theories and hypotheses and not LAWS in the scientific world.

I have never understood why the burden of proof is on the people asking about X and Y being a possible problem, why is that not a mutual ground? I understand when you make a claim you are now burdened with providing proof, however often the other part also lacks any hard-evidence yet it's now one-sided, even if one is clearly claiming AGAINST the original claim.

Before I went off onto a complete ramble, I just wanted to say that regarding computers and now recently more due to the competitive gaming landscape, Virtual Reality and Cloud Gaming, latency is becoming less "taboo" of a subject and acceptance is opening up rather than fast dismissal based on perceived ill-intention. And it's very nice to see someone such as yourself actually help and aid with things such as;

Framepacing
High DPI vs low DPI
High Polling Rates vs Low Polling Rates
EMI / Power interference for lag insanity
Network lag (explanations of how peering is at play, packet loss etc the whole spiel through commissions)
30hz vs 60hz (now 360hz vs 240hz)
Inputlag mattering in games, more importantly Esports and milliseconds DO matter.
Different "tweaks" and "optimizations" possibly being good and quantifiable (within limits of course)

and many, many more things. It's very nice to see and it makes it feel less like you've already been contracted to shut up by bigger companies when you're directly going against the grain so often if there is plausible potential/findings.

Thank you.

I'm not sure what I want to call the effect when something is now perceivable and has strong claims/reasonings (but not yet fully scientific proof) you would call this a hypothesis/conjecture we experience weird lag that is affected by the are in which we play we hypothesize causes and test them the thing is to do any sort of reliable testing we would need access to homes (or people in homes) that have proven performance (not have this issue) to base the results and better testing equipment so if anyone wants to do some real testing you can contact me on this forum and i will be happy to reply

[nuggify]

Since Blur Busters loves opening all kinds of Temporal Pandora Boxes all the time (...Hz|fps|GtG|MPRT|lag|etc...)
</Temporal Pandora Box>
ERROR 0001: Failed to execute closing tag. <Temporal Pandora Box> Failed To Close

Hey, kinda hijacking this thread and I apologize for that, but I wanted to say I really appreciate how you've recently been aiding the "insane" people with your own verifications and backup-claims of possibilities.

I've noticed that a lot of this has always been fueled by wild-goose hunts and (sometimes... honestly insanity) but more often than not there has been many discoveries lately and as things improve, the weakest chain gets more and more clear and we get to notice things more. I'm not sure what I want to call the effect when something is now perceivable and has strong claims/reasonings (but not yet fully scientific proof) but without real discussion there's already tons of naysayers! I wonder if it's because they've been living a lie and want to continue that? I don't know, I don't have the answers to it. A lot of the time people with these kinds of issues have been respectful and try their best to come with as much information as possible and simply discuss. I feel like it is because they crack under the pressure of other people instantly dismissing their info and drawing conclusions of them being insane, thus they lash out with time and become unpleasant. Knowing how human psychology works, the moment these people start acting vile/unpleasant due to them being pushed to the brink, there's now attack of their character in regards to their claims which even further ruins the potential for discoveries. I just find it strange that often people don't even look at the info provided! It's much better if people referred to actual hard-evidence and science when "disproving" these "insane" people. Even though science and evidence can be outdated with new info coming to play, that's why they're always theories and hypotheses and not LAWS in the scientific world.

I have never understood why the burden of proof is on the people asking about X and Y being a possible problem, why is that not a mutual ground? I understand when you make a claim you are now burdened with providing proof, however often the other part also lacks any hard-evidence yet it's now one-sided, even if one is clearly claiming AGAINST the original claim.

Before I went off onto a complete ramble, I just wanted to say that regarding computers and now recently more due to the competitive gaming landscape, Virtual Reality and Cloud Gaming, latency is becoming less "taboo" of a subject and acceptance is opening up rather than fast dismissal based on perceived ill-intention. And it's very nice to see someone such as yourself actually help and aid with things such as;

Framepacing
High DPI vs low DPI
High Polling Rates vs Low Polling Rates
EMI / Power interference for lag insanity
Network lag (explanations of how peering is at play, packet loss etc the whole spiel through commissions)
30hz vs 60hz (now 360hz vs 240hz)
Inputlag mattering in games, more importantly Esports and milliseconds DO matter.
Different "tweaks" and "optimizations" possibly being good and quantifiable (within limits of course)

and many, many more things. It's very nice to see and it makes it feel less like you've already been contracted to shut up by bigger companies when you're directly going against the grain so often if there is plausible potential/findings.

Thank you.

Not sure what to make of this comment other than the fact you call people who suffer this issue insane many times. Well if you live in the pacific northwest US you can come visit my home sometime and see for yourself.

Maybe you missed the thread (that I linked previously) on this site in which the user had solar panels and the Modbus was causing severe frametime spikes when communicating with POCO via his powerlines. So tell me do you just think that guy was completely full of it or what? That proves to me right there that disruptions in the electrical wave form can cause non destructive interference.

[diakou]

Not sure what to make of this comment other than the fact you call people who suffer this issue insane many times. Well if you live in the pacific northwest US you can come visit my home sometime and see for yourself.

Maybe you missed the thread (that I linked previously) on this site in which the user had solar panels and the Modbus was causing severe frametime spikes when communicating with POCO via his powerlines. So tell me do you just think that guy was completely full of it or what? That proves to me right there that disruptions in the electrical wave form can cause non destructive interference.

Hey, I apologize for making it seem that way, I am one of the "insane" people as well ;P. It was simply a form for figure of speech. I completely believe EMI, just as I believe in everything else I just posted. I was also labeled crazy for first two years until I finally found evidence, showed proof and fixed the problem of my own latency issues. I was simply saying it's nice to see someone "help" or at least read and properly digest the information these so called "crazy" people are claiming and then making conclusions / keeping an open mind such as what Chief is doing here. Nothing more then that.

To make it clear again;

I am one of the so-called "insane" people (but for different issues) and I also 100% believe in the problems you guys are facing.

[nuggify]

Hey, I apologize for making it seem that way, I am one of the "insane" people as well ;P. It was simply a form for figure of speech. I completely believe EMI, just as I believe in everything else I just posted. I was also labeled crazy for first two years until I finally found evidence, showed proof and fixed the problem of my own latency issues. I was simply saying it's nice to see someone "help" or at least read and properly digest the information these so called "crazy" people are claiming and then making conclusions / keeping an open mind such as what Chief is doing here. Nothing more then that.

To make it clear again;

I am one of the so-called "insane" people (but for different issues) and I also 100% believe in the problems you guys are facing.

Ah I misinterpreted, my apologies. What were your own latency issues caused by? And what proof did you find confirming that?

[Strongz]

I installed 2 damn ground bars and my delay came back, I was 3 days without it and I think it's time to give up forever

[Unixko]

I installed 2 damn ground bars and my delay came back, I was 3 days without it and I think it's time to give up forever

ye its always come back when i try new keyboard or new mouse is always good for 1 day and then this shit always comeback sometimes is good when i change something for 2 rounds xD its like its take a time for corrupt new things new outlet way 1 day ok then comeback new cabel from monitor 1 Day good and then comeback in 2017 it was good for 3 days aafter i change something now when ichange something is only for 1 day so i assume it worse overtime

[bijay135]

Hello everyone in blur busters. I am a fellow gamer and software engineer from Nepal and I have a very long history with this problem almost 5+ years. I made account here to specifically give you guys some details and where I ended up battling it. I have too much details so I will try to keep it minimal and free of placebos.

First of all this problem started 3-4 years ago for me when I was very competitive cs go player. Mouse would start to slowly get laggier and laggier after 4-5 hours of gaming, thus the named floaty / feeling like on ice effect. Then slowly over few years this time became faster and faster, as of now 30 minutes is max I can play with a mouse before it starts to get floaty. I invested some serious time in trying to fix it.
I tried almost everything I could think and act upon new hardware, proper electrical grounding, million OS fixes. There was geforce forums thread on this topic where many users shared their findings. I will post the forum topic here which is as of now closed, we almost reached 200+ pages but never found a fix that worked for more than few days. Finally, the OP moved to a new house and said that it fixed his problems.

www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/gaming-pcs/8/235326/mouseinput-lag-is-killing-me/

As of now I can see few threads in overclock forums, tom's hardware, jonnyguru and linustechtips discussing this issue and never getting anywhere. Now, I can see you guys investing your time and effort to fixing this with proper methods and actual testing which we lacked in our thread there was too many placebo fixes.

As of today I gave up pc gaming few years ago due to this issue and moved permanently to PS4 and became a casual. Nowdays, I play warzone and since warzone supports keyboard/mouse I did try with it but the lag after 30 minutes is still there, even got a new mouse which worked fine for about 3 days before problem started.

So, the only thing that has worked for me is the PS4 wireless controller, it never lags out even after playing 3+ hours. So, I am thinking wireless devices are not affected by this problem. I wanted to test a wireless gaming mouse but it's quite expensive here. So, if any of you have a wireless gaming mouse like Logiteh G pro, I bet this issue won't be seen there.

That is all I wanted to say, since I can't afford to move house yet so I am stuck with this problem for now. Good luck to you guys on finding a proper fix for this and thank you for reading. I will be following this thread occasionally. Hope this shines some light into this issue.