LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

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jorimt
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by jorimt » 30 Oct 2021, 11:31

NeonPizza wrote:
29 Oct 2021, 22:54
CNET said the S60 at it's brightest is 58FL(just over 198nits), before ABL kicks in and drops it down to 40nits. I find the 198 nits hard to believe....maybe they're talking about Vivid Mode? Input lag is hitting 34.4ms which obviously isn't ideal. Maybe the S60 also appears brighter than the C1's BFI High setting because there's no severe black crush going on with the plasma.\
It probably only reaches near that in mixed brightness scenes. As for the CX at BFI "High," I measured it here:
viewtopic.php?p=54466#p54466

At best, it's only around ~60 nits average picture level where brightness is concerned at 60Hz, which is still below many plasmas and CRTs in the same scenarios.

My point was, historically, peak white on most plasmas and CRTs is only around 100 nits. The SDR standard is intended for a peak 100 nits white, however, so that's all that was ever needed (for it to be fully representative of the source content) before HDR. The advent of non-strobed LCD backlights are what enabled the unreasonable (but consumer preferred) SDR brightness levels we have now, which are usually well over 100 nits (200-300 nit range), but with that obviously came sample-and-hold.

Short of extreme backlight brightness to compensate, you usually can't have strobing and high brightness, especially on sample and hold displays. I'm speaking loosely here (this is not my primary realm of expertise; the Chief would know more), but you'd probably need something like a several thousand nit backlight, a significant cooling system, and a very well tuned strobing implementation (be it BFI or rolling) to retain full field brightness levels well above 200 nits, let alone HDR levels (1000 nits+).

Until then, you can have excellent strobing clarity on a sample-and-hold display with compromised brightness, or good non-strobing clarity with high brightness on a high refresh rate sample-and-hold display sustaining a framerate to match.

That said, there are some low latency LCD gaming displays that have CRT-like motion clarity and brightness, so maybe you can look into those if you're willing to sacrifice on size and resolution (which you would have to do with a CRT and some plasmas anyway).
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by NeonPizza » 07 Nov 2021, 20:32

jorimt wrote:
30 Oct 2021, 11:31
NeonPizza wrote:
29 Oct 2021, 22:54
CNET said the S60 at it's brightest is 58FL(just over 198nits), before ABL kicks in and drops it down to 40nits. I find the 198 nits hard to believe....maybe they're talking about Vivid Mode? Input lag is hitting 34.4ms which obviously isn't ideal. Maybe the S60 also appears brighter than the C1's BFI High setting because there's no severe black crush going on with the plasma.\
It probably only reaches near that in mixed brightness scenes. As for the CX at BFI "High," I measured it here:
viewtopic.php?p=54466#p54466

At best, it's only around ~60 nits average picture level where brightness is concerned at 60Hz, which is still below many plasmas and CRTs in the same scenarios.

My point was, historically, peak white on most plasmas and CRTs is only around 100 nits. The SDR standard is intended for a peak 100 nits white, however, so that's all that was ever needed (for it to be fully representative of the source content) before HDR. The advent of non-strobed LCD backlights are what enabled the unreasonable (but consumer preferred) SDR brightness levels we have now, which are usually well over 100 nits (200-300 nit range), but with that obviously came sample-and-hold.

Short of extreme backlight brightness to compensate, you usually can't have strobing and high brightness, especially on sample and hold displays. I'm speaking loosely here (this is not my primary realm of expertise; the Chief would know more), but you'd probably need something like a several thousand nit backlight, a significant cooling system, and a very well tuned strobing implementation (be it BFI or rolling) to retain full field brightness levels well above 200 nits, let alone HDR levels (1000 nits+).

Until then, you can have excellent strobing clarity on a sample-and-hold display with compromised brightness, or good non-strobing clarity with high brightness on a high refresh rate sample-and-hold display sustaining a framerate to match.

That said, there are some low latency LCD gaming displays that have CRT-like motion clarity and brightness, so maybe you can look into those if you're willing to sacrifice on size and resolution (which you would have to do with a CRT and some plasmas anyway).
Well, I'm not so concerned with Streaming/movies at this point. Knowing that the Phillips +936 OLED in the UK has barely ANY brightness Loss or noticeable flicker when using it's BFI Maximum setting tells me that they're on the right track with advancing BFI forward. Hopefully Sony etc follow in that direction for their 2022 OLED HDTV's. I just prefer 200nits in SDR or possibly a little less for movies. But for gaming? I want at least 250nits SDR. 100nits just doesn't give me the impression or feeling as if i'm looking through a window. It makes me feel like i'm staring at a Dim TV. :P Also, what good is HDR for streaming when you can't even use BFI? Can't have it both ways in that case.

BFI High on the LG C1 which produces motion slightly better than my Panasonic S60(Although the C1 has twice the amount of judder still...) for example, even with peak brightness set to HIGH with OLED light maxed still lacks the pop and brightness that i prefer without BFI....and that flicker, blugh! Ultiamtely, it just can't reach 200 nits.

My only hope for the Nintendo switch is PC 120fps emulation at this point with the Ryujinx if that's even possible. Can't stomach the crazy amount of base motion blur with 60fps on OLED, meanwhile BFI HIGH aside from producing plasma-level motion is just too dim for my liking like i pointed out earlier and i wont settle for gaming on the Switch OLED with it's tiny 7" screen strapped with a pair of those uncomfortable cheap-O joy-cons. Not into hand held gaming anymore.

I mean, with 3rd party titles on PC, using an RTX3080Ti isn't it possible to run EVERY single game you throw at it in 120fps? even if it means dropping down to 1080p? if that's doable than i'll just go straight to PC and skip the PS5 until the PS5 Pro comes out which assumingly will push 120fps for nearly every game. Switch is still screwed without emulation though.

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jorimt
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by jorimt » 07 Nov 2021, 21:13

NeonPizza wrote:
07 Nov 2021, 20:32
Then quite frankly, I don't think there's a modern sample-and-hold TV (let alone monitor) in BFI-mode that will give you the MPRT AND the uncompromised brightness you want in the 200+ nit range, be it APL or full field. Not even modern OLEDs in non-strobed mode exceed much more than ~150 nits full field in either SDR or HDR.

For TVs, that leaves non-strobed OLED at 120Hz, ~200+ nits APL, assuming your PC can sustain 120 FPS in any of the more modern games you're playing, which would, like you mentioned, take something hefty like a 3080 or higher and a CPU to match.

It sucks you're so sensitive to this, seeing as we're stuck in the time we are with the manufacturing limitations we have, all the while I'm here playing Metroid Dread on my CX at 60Hz 100 nits non-strobed SDR (3D LUT calibrated) just fine.

Are you a fixed/center gazer, or do you tend to eye track? I'm the former, so it doesn't bother me much, but for the latter, it can be more of an issue.
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frobus
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by frobus » 14 Nov 2021, 15:06

Just to add for anybody looking at the LG C1 OLED, since it's got a really good price going right now, I'll say that I think it's pretty spectacular.

Picture is great, HDR is great, and blur is solid. Without BFI, it's still good, better than regular 144Hz panels I've used. With BFI, it's excellent. While I don't have any modern 240Hz+ panels to compare against, I can say I'm happier with this than I have been any other display since my last CRT. What's especially nice, is the BFI requires very little compromise, and no setup. You lose some brightness, and you lose VRR (which I don't mind too much, since I just adjust settings to get my FPS capped to 120 anyways). You don't have to do any tweaking or deal with crosstalk or anything of the like. It just works. You also don't have to deal with things like overdrive settings, which some displays have issues with needing different settings for different refresh rates.

It's probably not the most blur free display available, given the 120Hz limit. But the combination of picture quality and generally well performing BFI (that can be used at 60Hz even!), make it pretty impressive imo. Gaming in a dark room is just amazing on OLEDs.

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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 16 Nov 2021, 15:04

NeonPizza wrote:
07 Nov 2021, 20:32
I mean, with 3rd party titles on PC, using an RTX3080Ti isn't it possible to run EVERY single game you throw at it in 120fps? even if it means dropping down to 1080p? if that's doable than i'll just go straight to PC and skip the PS5 until the PS5 Pro comes out which assumingly will push 120fps for nearly every game. Switch is still screwed without emulation though.
You'll be able to do 1080p/120 on most non-raytraced games on an RTX 3080 Ti. You will have to significantly reduce detail levels on titles such as Cyberpunk 2077 though, but it can peak at 120fps with the help of lower detail and DLSS enabled.

If you get a good any-Hz strober like the XG2431 -- like www.blurbusters.com/xg2431 -- then you can create a QFT modes catering to the specific frame rates your games can achieve, e.g. 100Hz strobing if you want a bit more game detail.
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whitestar
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by whitestar » 23 Nov 2021, 18:28

Technically this is a question for the LG C1, but since there was no thread for it (and it's very similar to the CX) I ask it here. In the RTINGS test I saw this:

"In 'Game Optimizer' mode, the settings are the same, but note that you can't enable BFI if you have Prevent Input Delay set to 'Boost'. Unfortunately, you can't enable BFI in 'PC' mode."

So what does that mean exactly. Can I still enable BFI when connecting a PC to the C1?

Also, how will a 1080p game look on the 4K screen? I assume the upscaling is pretty good on that TV? Or is that just true for TV signals?

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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by jorimt » 23 Nov 2021, 20:43

whitestar wrote:
23 Nov 2021, 18:28
Unfortunately, you can't enable BFI in 'PC' mode."

So what does that mean exactly. Can I still enable BFI when connecting a PC to the C1?
It means you can enabled it when using a PC, but if you set the input to "PC Mode," BFI won't be available. You can use your PC on the C1 with or without PC Mode enabled, however. PC Mode generally allows full 4:4:4 Chroma.

I own the CX, so I don't know off-the-top-of-my-head if there are any other benefits to using PC Mode on the C1 beyond that.
whitestar wrote:
23 Nov 2021, 18:28
Also, how will a 1080p game look on the 4K screen? I assume the upscaling is pretty good on that TV? Or is that just true for TV signals?
Since 1080p is an even multiple of 4k, it should scale well. I.E. it will look as good as 1080p can on a 4k TV display, and the TV should scale 1080p the same regardless of whether it's game or video content.

If you have a newer Nvidia GPU, you may even be able to get sharper scaling with one of its modes, such as "Integer scaling."
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by whitestar » 24 Nov 2021, 04:34

jorimt wrote:
23 Nov 2021, 20:43
whitestar wrote:
23 Nov 2021, 18:28
Unfortunately, you can't enable BFI in 'PC' mode."

So what does that mean exactly. Can I still enable BFI when connecting a PC to the C1?
It means you can enabled it when using a PC, but if you set the input to "PC Mode," BFI won't be available. You can use your PC on the C1 with or without PC Mode enabled, however. PC Mode generally allows full 4:4:4 Chroma.

I own the CX, so I don't know off-the-top-of-my-head if there are any other benefits to using PC Mode on the C1 beyond that.
whitestar wrote:
23 Nov 2021, 18:28
Also, how will a 1080p game look on the 4K screen? I assume the upscaling is pretty good on that TV? Or is that just true for TV signals?
Since 1080p is an even multiple of 4k, it should scale well. I.E. it will look as good as 1080p can on a 4k TV display, and the TV should scale 1080p the same regardless of whether it's game or video content.

If you have a newer Nvidia GPU, you may even be able to get sharper scaling with one of its modes, such as "Integer scaling."
Thanks :)
I have a 3080 so yes, integer scaling might do the trick. Although I wonder if it will look a bit pixellated on a large screen like a 55 inch. I sit about 3 m away. According to this web site I should be fine though: https://www.avu.ca/video/perfecting-pro ... -distance/

Btw, if I play in 60Hz with BFI then I won't need an HDMI 2.1 cable, correct?

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jorimt
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by jorimt » 24 Nov 2021, 09:15

whitestar wrote:
24 Nov 2021, 04:34
Btw, if I play in 60Hz with BFI then I won't need an HDMI 2.1 cable, correct?
Correct. HDMI 2.0 supports up to 4k 60Hz 4:4:4.
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by 1000WATT » 24 Nov 2021, 18:23

jorimt wrote:
23 Nov 2021, 20:43
whitestar wrote:
23 Nov 2021, 18:28
Unfortunately, you can't enable BFI in 'PC' mode."

So what does that mean exactly. Can I still enable BFI when connecting a PC to the C1?
It means you can enabled it when using a PC, but if you set the input to "PC Mode," BFI won't be available. You can use your PC on the C1 with or without PC Mode enabled, however. PC Mode generally allows full 4:4:4 Chroma.
bfi is available in PC mode if g-sync is disabled in the nvidia settings. for c1
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