Micro-stuttering / hitch & Frametime spikes issue

[Chief Blur Buster]

I will definitely take this and use it myself.
I never thought we needed to do maintenance on the SSD, but will schedule it once in a while.

SSD normally doesn't need much maintenance, but the problem is many games are optimized at only QD1 performance -- and you know how SSD's are much slower at QD1 performance than QD32. And disk reads are usually single-threaded in most games to be backwards compatible with the same game running off a HDD.

When a game reads a thousand fragments, it's really slowing down to QD1 speeds. An SSD with poor QD1 scores will stutter more with modern 80 gigabyte games than an SSD with excellent QD1 scores.

I don't schedule defrag, but I manually optimize BEFORE and AFTER installing big games. BEFORE, so that game files that are installed -- the gigabyte files aren't fragmented by the thousands of source-code files I already have on my SSD. Then AFTER, so that any game files that fragment into thousands of fragments, are reoptimized to contiguous blocks.

This is one of the cases where Intel Optane Memory is worth it for high refresh rate users who are picky about asset-load stutters -- because they do help those 0.1% frametimes, even if 99% of framerate is unaffected by Optane memory. People say "only 2% higher framerate. MEH!" when it's those diskload stutters that's what Optane helps fix.

The stutters invisible at 60 Hz are now visible on newer fast-IPS and fast-TN at high refresh rates (240 Hz+) -- and this is where higher performance SSD like Samsung 960 Pro+ / Optane selection can be key for those asset-load stutters. Don't cheap out on your SSD QD1 performance if you're super picky about asset-load stutters.

[Brainlet]

I will definitely take this and use it myself.
I never thought we needed to do maintenance on the SSD, but will schedule it once in a while.

SSD normally doesn't need much maintenance, but the problem is many games are optimized at only QD1 performance -- and you know how SSD's are much slower at QD1 performance than QD32. And disk reads are usually single-threaded in most games to be backwards compatible with the same game running off a HDD.

When a game reads a thousand fragments, it's really slowing down to QD1 speeds. An SSD with poor QD1 scores will stutter more with modern 80 gigabyte games than an SSD with excellent QD1 scores.

I don't schedule defrag, but I manually optimize BEFORE and AFTER installing big games. BEFORE, so that game files that are installed -- the gigabyte files aren't fragmented by the thousands of source-code files I already have on my SSD. Then AFTER, so that any game files that fragment into thousands of fragments, are reoptimized to contiguous blocks.

This is one of the cases where Intel Optane Memory is worth it for high refresh rate users who are picky about asset-load stutters -- because they do help those 0.1% frametimes, even if 99% of framerate is unaffected by Optane memory. People say "only 2% higher framerate. MEH!" when it's those diskload stutters that's what Optane helps fix.

The stutters invisible at 60 Hz are now visible on newer fast-IPS and fast-TN at high refresh rates (240 Hz+) -- and this is where higher performance SSD like Samsung 960 Pro+ / Optane selection can be key for those asset-load stutters. Don't cheap out on your SSD QD1 performance if you're super picky about asset-load stutters.

In general open world games like BRs tend to stream a lot of data from storage as you move around on the map.

This is an old screenshot from 2019:


Another one made recently with the new Performance Mode:


Both screenshots were made while moving around on the map (not in loading screens).

Now that high binned 2x16GB RAM is becoming affordable, ramdisking Fortnite is an option (it's only ~15GB without HD textures).

[depatere]

When a game reads a thousand fragments, it's really slowing down to QD1 speeds. An SSD with poor QD1 scores will stutter more with modern 80 gigabyte games than an SSD with excellent QD1 scores.

I don't schedule defrag, but I manually optimize BEFORE and AFTER installing big games. BEFORE, so that game files that are installed -- the gigabyte files aren't fragmented by the thousands of source-code files I already have on my SSD. Then AFTER, so that any game files that fragment into thousands of fragments, are reoptimized to contiguous blocks.

Alright, seems like you and Jorimt are on the same page there. And by optimizing before and after, you mean TRIM ? Or what do I understand under this? First time I would do it, so any explanation would be helpful as to what exactly you mean by optimizing. Utility name or something. Do you mean the simple button called Optimize here: https://imgur.com/a/dqNbNd9 ? Or do you mean using a utility that comes from the brand of your SSD

This is one of the cases where Intel Optane Memory is worth it for high refresh rate users who are picky about asset-load stutters -- because they do help those 0.1% frametimes, even if 99% of framerate is unaffected by Optane memory. People say "only 2% higher framerate. MEH!" when it's those diskload stutters that's what Optane helps fix.

The stutters invisible at 60 Hz are now visible on newer fast-IPS and fast-TN at high refresh rates (240 Hz+) -- and this is where higher performance SSD like Samsung 960 Pro+ / Optane selection can be key for those asset-load stutters. Don't cheap out on your SSD QD1 performance if you're super picky about asset-load stutters.

Definitely will look into a drive with higher 1QD performance, I had no idea when I bought this SG8200 Pro drive, so I'm not sure if it's performing any good in that regard!



Also guys, this is a bit related, but since you are the professionals on this issue. I've already following the recommendations in this thread here, and must say, it's been running smoother than before, so thank you for that. I'm still seeing another issue that I think has not been mentioned here before and a Google search doesn't give me much info either.

I will also add that there are no abnormalities in the frametime graph. It stays flat at that moment, same for the framerate itself.

With V-Sync On and G-sync on, capped like 6 frames under the 144fps which is the max of my monitor - if I move my mouse in circular motion around, sometimes in certain scenes or moments in the game, it feels like the screen is skipping frames. At that moment, there is no real screen tearing, however, due to the circular motion of my mouse it feels as if the screen is jumping from one frame to another, without the intermittent frames. Not always btw, but it's easy reproducable.


You guys got any more information on this and how to avoid it?

[depatere]

I will definitely take this and use it myself.
I never thought we needed to do maintenance on the SSD, but will schedule it once in a while.

SSD normally doesn't need much maintenance, but the problem is many games are optimized at only QD1 performance -- and you know how SSD's are much slower at QD1 performance than QD32. And disk reads are usually single-threaded in most games to be backwards compatible with the same game running off a HDD.

When a game reads a thousand fragments, it's really slowing down to QD1 speeds. An SSD with poor QD1 scores will stutter more with modern 80 gigabyte games than an SSD with excellent QD1 scores.

I don't schedule defrag, but I manually optimize BEFORE and AFTER installing big games. BEFORE, so that game files that are installed -- the gigabyte files aren't fragmented by the thousands of source-code files I already have on my SSD. Then AFTER, so that any game files that fragment into thousands of fragments, are reoptimized to contiguous blocks.

This is one of the cases where Intel Optane Memory is worth it for high refresh rate users who are picky about asset-load stutters -- because they do help those 0.1% frametimes, even if 99% of framerate is unaffected by Optane memory. People say "only 2% higher framerate. MEH!" when it's those diskload stutters that's what Optane helps fix.

The stutters invisible at 60 Hz are now visible on newer fast-IPS and fast-TN at high refresh rates (240 Hz+) -- and this is where higher performance SSD like Samsung 960 Pro+ / Optane selection can be key for those asset-load stutters. Don't cheap out on your SSD QD1 performance if you're super picky about asset-load stutters.

In general open world games like BRs tend to stream a lot of data from storage as you move around on the map.

This is an old screenshot from 2019:


Another one made recently with the new Performance Mode:


Both screenshots were made while moving around on the map (not in loading screens).

Now that high binned 2x16GB RAM is becoming affordable, ramdisking Fortnite is an option (it's only ~15GB without HD textures).

Where did you enable the new Performance mode? Is it something set in Windows?

[Brainlet]

https://www.epicgames.com/fortnite/en-U ... sts-pc-fps
My point was that it still streams a lot of data from your storage.

[jorimt]

Do you mean the simple button called Optimize here: https://imgur.com/a/dqNbNd9 ?

That's the one.

With V-Sync On and G-sync on, capped like 6 frames under the 144fps which is the max of my monitor - if I move my mouse in circular motion around, sometimes in certain scenes or moments in the game, it feels like the screen is skipping frames. At that moment, there is no real screen tearing, however, due to the circular motion of my mouse it feels as if the screen is jumping from one frame to another, without the intermittent frames. Not always btw, but it's easy reproducable.

Without seeing this myself, off-the-top-of-my-head, it could be a frametime spike occurring occasionally during the rapid continuous movement, making the pause more apparent (the less or slower the camera movement, the less noticeable a frametime spike is), and/or due to the below phenomena:
https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=946



The Chief may know more about that one.

[depatere]

Do you mean the simple button called Optimize here: https://imgur.com/a/dqNbNd9 ?

That's the one.

With V-Sync On and G-sync on, capped like 6 frames under the 144fps which is the max of my monitor - if I move my mouse in circular motion around, sometimes in certain scenes or moments in the game, it feels like the screen is skipping frames. At that moment, there is no real screen tearing, however, due to the circular motion of my mouse it feels as if the screen is jumping from one frame to another, without the intermittent frames. Not always btw, but it's easy reproducable.

Without seeing this myself, off-the-top-of-my-head, it could be a frametime spike occurring occasionally during the rapid continuous movement, making the pause more apparent (the less or slower the camera movement, the less noticeable a frametime spike is), and/or due to the below phenomena:
https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=946



The Chief may know more about that one.

Jorimt, is it also advisable to turn off superfetch and prefetch on nvme drives to reduce stuttering due to loading?

Also, what drive would you recommend next to the optane intels, as they are super expensive

[jorimt]

Jorimt, is it also advisable to turn off superfetch and prefetch on nvme drives to reduce stuttering due to loading?

To my knowledge, Windows 10 automatically disables such settings when it detects an SSD. You shouldn't need to mess with it.

Also, what drive would you recommend next to the optane intels, as they are super expensive

Even though I have most of my game library on a WD Black 6TB, I have a 970 Evo Plus that I offload some of my games to when I'm actively playing them, but as Chief has said here and elsewhere, I suppose you want to prioritize QD1 speeds if you want the best legacy performance from most PC games on an SSD, as the majority of PC games are still basically in HDD mode where asset streaming is concerned, regardless of whether you're running them from an SSD or HDD.

Again, SSD currently only gives you a reduction in loading times over HDD in most PC games (and not even all of them; depends on how the given engine handles loading), and does little to nothing to improve frametime performance where real-time asset streaming is concerned.

[depatere]

Jorimt, is it also advisable to turn off superfetch and prefetch on nvme drives to reduce stuttering due to loading?

To my knowledge, Windows 10 automatically disables such settings when it detects an SSD. You shouldn't need to mess with it.

Also, what drive would you recommend next to the optane intels, as they are super expensive

Even though I have most of my game library on a WD Black 6TB, I have a 970 Evo Plus that I offload some of my games to when I'm actively playing them, but as Chief has said here and elsewhere, I suppose you want to prioritize QD1 speeds if you want the best legacy performance from most PC games on an SSD, as the majority of PC games are still basically in HDD mode where asset streaming is concerned, regardless of whether you're running them from an SSD or HDD.

Again, SSD currently only gives you a reduction in loading times over HDD in most PC games (and not even all of them; depends on how the given engine handles loading), and does little to nothing to improve frametime performance where real-time asset streaming is concerned.

Sorry for reviving the thread here - but I wanted to dive deeper into the Optane / Samsung thing here.

To reduce the frametime spikes you get during loading assets of any game, I just read that Optane drives for consumers are discontinued.
When Chief is talking about Optane / Samsung EVO, does he mean that you combine the two?
Or that either of those drives help with minimizing the frametime stutters?

I'm ready to make an investment towards getting as minor of stutters as possible, as I'm very sensitive to it.
I currently have an ADATA SX8200 - guessing this could be replaced with a better one concerning framespikes of asset loads?

Pretty apparent in all games..

[jorimt]

I'm ready to make an investment towards getting as minor of stutters as possible, as I'm very sensitive to it.
I currently have an ADATA SX8200 - guessing this could be replaced with a better one concerning framespikes of asset loads?

Pretty apparent in all games..

If the minor stutters that are bothering you in all games are I/O-related, no SSD, no matter its speed, be it SATA or NVMe, will eliminate or even mitigate them. For instance, my main gaming drive is now a 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 M.2 NVMe (running in its "Gaming Mode"), and I notice no improvement over my old 7200RPM WD Black HDD in this respect.

Even modern game storage APIs are still stuck at legacy HDD transfer rates, so the only thing SSD's are going to improve where I/O performance is concerned is load times, nothing more.

Asset-load-related stutter on PC primarily has to be addressed at the engine-level by the developers, and is usually mitigated my methods such as pre-loaded shaders, etc.

UE4 in particular (which a lot of recent games have been based on) has a big problem with asset and shader-related stutter. I've been playing Sifu lately, and ever single time he enters a new area, it stutters like mad, no matter my settings, and it's been confirmed by technical outlets like Digital Foundry to be a PC-only issue; PS5 is stutter-free in this respect.

DirectStorage is in the works (see: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/ ... ing-to-pc/), and aims to take advantage of the greater SSD bandwidth to increase I/O transfer rates in PC games to be more on par with say, PS5 (which has less asset-related stutter due to taking full advantage of SSD transfer rates, as well as the fact that it is a fixed architecture system, and like any console, doesn't have to deal with shader compilation), but there's no ETA on its release, and it will likely be game-dependent to a point, and even with that extra bandwidth, future devs can just oversaturate I/O transfers again, creating the same problem we have now.