Help: Can a monitor cause micro stuttering?

[cher87]

I finally could buy a new graphic card, still crazy prices but after saving money for a while I did it. I thought it was a perfect setup and but now I'm not happy at all.
I bought a ROG Strix RX 6600XT 8GB OC and a 144Hz monitor to finish my setup:

• ROG Strix B550-F gaming
  Ryzen 5 5600X (stock, no OC)
  2x8 DDR4 Crucial Ballistix 3200MHz
  Corsair CX650 (PSU)
  Asus VP249QGR monitor

Games have good FPS but something I felt like mini freezes (1ms talking but like a freezes, I don't know how to call it) that ruins my experience and even worst, it frustrate me a lot cause I spent a lot of money (according to my budget) and I'm not getting a good experience playing old games.

I'm coming from 60Hz old monitor from 2007 and R7 370 GPU and I felt the experience better then than now. And I don't know why, IDK if it is freesync, or what. Playing CS:GO for example, I was playing a match and micro stuttering and makes none sense... playing a 2012 game with a Ryzen 5 5600X and a RX 6600 XT and not getting smooth experience it's frustrating.

I ran several test and bechs and everything looks perfect so Im guessing that my new monitor it's the problem. is that possible? Should I return it?
UserBenchmark results 1
UserBenchmark results 2
HWmonitor while gaming part 1
HWmonitor while gaming part 2
HWmonitor while gaming part 3

I'll try to play without FreeSync ON in monitor options but that shouldn't be a bad thing... it's supposed to be a good thing having a FreeSync display.

PS: I'm playing with latest GPU drivers and overall drivers, Windows 10 up to date and DP port cable with Freesync ON (trace free at 80 which its default setting but idk what trace free is) and 144Hz.
PS 2: Temps are high but "normal" for AMD according to what I read... 70/80 for CPU (I read below 90 degress it's still fine) and 70/72° the GPU... Sort of.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Can you please post frametime spike graphs (either RTSS or AfterBurner or other software)?

Sometimes (not always) I can immediately identify certain kinds of problems by looking at these graphs, and tell you if it's a setting problem, a game problem, or even confirm a potential monitor problem.

If it is a settings misconfiguration, you may get the same problem with all other monitors you get. So those frametime graphs are extremely important in diagnosing your problem.

One of the many reasons is you need more timing-precision for perfect smooth 144Hz. An 8ms frametime spike can sometimes be invisible at 60Hz (8ms is less than half a 60Hz refresh cycle) but visible at 144Hz (8ms is bigger than a 144Hz refresh cycle).

Some games are not VRR friendly, so you have to turn off VRR (FreeSync) for certain games, and use a different sync technology such as VSYNC ON or VSYNC OFF or AMD Enhanced Sync. Other times, for a specific game, a framerate cap in RTSS helps a lot (e.g. if your game fluctuates 30 thru 200fps, you may want to use a 100fps cap to stabilize the stutters a little).

If you want the smoothest possible VRR, then you need these five settings simultanoeusly:
- VSYNC OFF in game settings (this makes the game more VRR-friendly)
- VSYNC ON in driver settings (this eliminates artifacts/stutters/tearing/lag caused by framerate gyrating above/below monitor's Hz)
- FreeSync ON in driver settings
- FreeSync ON in monitor menus
- Framerate cap about 3fps below Hz, since there can be stutters caused by the transition of framerate above/below Hz.

The smoothest VRR occurs when you purchase a monitor with a VRR range bigger than your planned framerate range. Also, if you are using VRR, it's better to upgrade all the way to 240Hz, since that's 4x clearer than 60Hz, and sometimes overcomes microstutter problems more, by the brute extra Hz.

[cher87]

Can you please post frametime spike graphs (either RTSS or AfterBurner or other software)?

Sometimes (not always) I can immediately identify certain kinds of problems by looking at these graphs, and tell you if it's a setting problem, a game problem, or even confirm a potential monitor problem.

Sure. I just played around 1 hour just to make the graphs and post them. Here they are, the LOG (I think u have to have MSI afterburner to open it) and a screenshot. I don't know why (I think last night I changed GPU drivers but didn't have time to test them) but the game was better. I still get stuttering, but less, or I was paying less attention.


HERE is the complete graph to download (it has CPU usage, GPU usage and stuff).

Some games are not VRR friendly, so you have to turn off VRR (FreeSync) for certain games, and use a different sync technology such as VSYNC ON or VSYNC OFF or AMD Enhanced Sync. Other times, for a specific game, a framerate cap in RTSS helps a lot (e.g. if your game fluctuates 30 thru 200fps, you may want to use a 100fps cap to stabilize the stutters a little).

I don't know what exactly is Enhanced Sync but I have the option to use it (disabled). Didn't know that you have to choose between freesync and enhanced sync, I thought it will take the FreeSync and make it better.

If you want the smoothest possible VRR, then you need these five settings simultanoeusly:
- VSYNC OFF in game settings (this makes the game more VRR-friendly)
- VSYNC ON in driver settings (this eliminates artifacts/stutters/tearing/lag caused by framerate gyrating above/below monitor's Hz)
- FreeSync ON in driver settings
- FreeSync ON in monitor menus
- Framerate cap about 3fps below Hz, since there can be stutters caused by the transition of framerate above/below Hz.

I have "always disable" on AMD radeon settings, cause I thought that it was the best option, since i'll disabling Vsync in game and use Freesync.

The smoothest VRR occurs when you purchase a monitor with a VRR range bigger than your planned framerate range. Also, if you are using VRR, it's better to upgrade all the way to 240Hz, since that's 4x clearer than 60Hz, and sometimes overcomes microstutter problems more, by the brute extra Hz.

I can't effort a 240Hz right now... I was able to buy this VP249QGR and if this one it's failed or something and I have to return it, I could spend a little more money and get a ViewSonic XG2405 (I don't know if its better, maybe I'm paying extra money just for the ergonomic stand. My other options were XG2405 and G24F, but I went for this Asus cause it was cheaper but I guess ViewSonic it's a better monitor brand. The G24 have coil whine according to internet so I didn't considered it.

Thanks for all the support and info man, I really appreciated.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Sure. I just played around 1 hour just to make the graphs and post them. Here they are, the LOG (I think u have to have MSI afterburner to open it) and a screenshot. I don't know why (I think last night I changed GPU drivers but didn't have time to test them) but the game was better. I still get stuttering, but less, or I was paying less attention.

Excellent -- this answers a lot of my questions. What you have is an erratic form of frametime spikes, which eliminates a lot of known cyclic causes.

It also doesn't look like it's caused by CPU spikes in RGB-animator software (e.g. inefficient keyboard blinkenlight animator software -- extra software driving that is sometimes culprit of frametime spikes on some systems)

It doesn't look like a thermal throttling behaviour, but you can always also test a 10% underclock at least to re-verify.

It doesn't look like a network-derived behavior (AFAIK)

It *could* be texturestreaming behaviour, where the GPU is loading new graphics from disk in realtime.
- Shader compiler (try reducing shader detail settings to reduce shader compiler overhead spikes)
- Texturestreaming/asset loader (use fast NVMe SSD, not SATA SSD).

Tiny stutters that are hidden by 60Hz, can be made visible by 144Hz. You may want to do an additional test of configuring 60Hz and FreeSync disabled and see what the graphs look like there instead.

Please try my FreeSync recommendations and prevent your framerate from exceeding Hz, to keep your framerates inside your VRR range, to prevent stutterfeel/lagfeel effects (caused by fps<Hz versus fps>Hz transitions) -- better VRR feel requires framerate ranges completely inside VRR range. Ugly VRR stutter/lag effects can sometimes happen from those framerate-vs-Hz transitions, and you need to control those for beautiful VRR oepration.

I don't know what exactly is Enhanced Sync but I have the option to use it (disabled). Didn't know that you have to choose between freesync and enhanced sync, I thought it will take the FreeSync and make it better.

Enhanced Sync is unrelated to FreeSync. It's a non-VRR triple buffering algorithm.

I have "always disable" on AMD radeon settings, cause I thought that it was the best option, since i'll disabling Vsync in game and use Freesync.

In Control Panel (AMD Catalyst Control Center or NVIDIA Control Panel) you should configure a fallback sync technology because FreeSync stops working when framerates are outside VRR range.

In framerate below Hz, LFC is used (Low Frame Rate Compensation).

In framerate above Hz, the fallback sync technology is used (either VSYNC ON or VSYNC OFF). But for consistent lagfeel (you should NOT allow latency to suddenly change -- that's a bad effect and can also have visible stutter feels as well as frametime spikes, possibly including what you're experiencing).

So you also want to configure a framerate cap below max Hz of a VRR display, so the fallback sync technology rarely activates (i.e. and then it only activates from imprecision of framerate cap). We recommend VSYNC ON as the fallback sync technology for quality-purists (rather than latency-purists) as it's a more invisible transition. Especially when used in conjunction with a framerate cap that makes the fallback sync technology rarely happen.

I can't effort a 240Hz right now... I was able to buy this VP249QGR and if this one it's failed or something and I have to return it, I could spend a little more money and get a ViewSonic XG2405 (I don't know if its better, maybe I'm paying extra money just for the ergonomic stand. My other options were XG2405 and G24F, but I went for this Asus cause it was cheaper but I guess ViewSonic it's a better monitor brand. The G24 have coil whine according to internet so I didn't considered it.

You can also test 144 Hz VSYNC OFF (forget about using FreeSync) since FreeSync works better at 240Hz+ in many esports games.

However, if you're using FreeSync to improve your casual play experience, you need to configure the 5-step for the highest quality least-stutter experience:

- VSYNC OFF in game settings (this makes the game more VRR-friendly)
- VSYNC ON in driver settings (this eliminates artifacts/stutters/tearing/lag caused by framerate gyrating above/below monitor's Hz)
- FreeSync ON in driver settings
- FreeSync ON in monitor menus
- Framerate cap about 3fps below Hz, since there can be stutters caused by the transition of framerate above/below Hz.

(It can vary from 0.5-1fps below Hz for 60Hz thru 5-10fps below Hz for 360Hz+, but the boilerplate recommendation is 3fps below -- breathing room for capping error margin)

Thanks for all the support and info man, I really appreciated.

You are welcome!

[cher87]

Alright. So, my monitor it's fine and I don't have to return right? it was a setting problem. And, you don't consider one of those a better option (Gigabyte G24F or ViewSonic XG2405).

After answer you I try another game (shadow of the tomb Rider, ultra settings) with Vsync ON in driver settings (always on) and Vsync OFF in game settings, and FreeSync ON in both, driver and monitor. Here are my settings in drivers and the result in RTSS




I forgot to start the record to share the graph file but I guess the screenshot it's enough.
I don't know what do you think about this graphic, but the experience felt better, with non much notable stuttering (maybe it was just me trying to find it and being aware of that but actually it would be nothing if I was just playing casual).

It is a different game and a different FPS numbers (I have higher fps on Shadow of the tomb raider) so later I'll try those settings in GTA V to see if the stuttering it's gone o better.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Glad it feels better with my recommendation of improved settings!

The frametime spikes seem to be at weird locations -- could be texturestreaming -- but could be VRR-related stiction effects.

Try testing a framerate cap a little further below Hz (e.g. 135-138fps cap at 144Hz), and also try testing RTSS capping instead of the in-game capping. There is sometimes a sudden frametime stiction behaviour when framerates start touching Hz, and again when framerates stops touching Hz. Capping is a band-aid (for lagfeel and stutterfeel problems) when you have framerate ranges that often exits VRR ranges too often...

This may or may not not be a stiction-like behaviour where frametimes surges whenever framerates sticks/unsticks from Hz (an property of certain models of variable refresh rate displays, in regards to ultra-sensitive latency and stutter individuals).

(That's why I love humongous VRR ranges like 360Hz max, since I don't have to deal with the capping bleep when organic natural framerates stay completely within VRR range -- the "esports way" of properly using VRR technologies.)

[cher87]

The frametime spikes seem to be at weird locations -- could be texturestreaming -- but could be VRR-related stiction effects.

I have my games installed in an old HDD drive (it has like 10 years but still works great. Western digital, amazing Brand... I tested and the disk it's 100% healthy). Could this be the cause of texture streaming problems? I have a 256GB M.2 for my system and programs, and the HDD for data a games.

Capping is a band-aid (for lagfeel and stutterfeel problems) when you have framerate ranges that often exits VRR ranges too often...

This may or may not not be a stiction-like behaviour where frametimes surges whenever framerates sticks/unsticks from Hz (an property of certain models of variable refresh rate displays, in regards to ultra-sensitive latency and stutter individuals).

Again... Is my monitor ok? My problems are not a monitor quality related thing? Because having VRR should be a good thing... Maybe my unit have a bad implementation of VRR (on a hardware level) and I'm applying a software band-aid...
I want to make sure of this because I just bought the monitor and I shouldn't have to be fixing things having the opportunity to return it.
I don't know if it can be a physical thing or a bad software implementation on the monitor (I know Gsync it is a hardware thing, the monitor has to have a chip or something).

Thanks again for your time

[cher87]

(That's why I love humongous VRR ranges like 360Hz max, since I don't have to deal with the capping bleep when organic natural framerates stay completely within VRR range -- the "esports way" of properly using VRR technologies.)

Gigabyte G24F it's 165Hz, not 240 but maybe better.

Anyways, im still having this micro stuttering and it's getting really anoying. IDK if I have to return my monitor, or the GPU just sucks.
I spend all my money on this and I can't play a 2013 games like GTA V.
RX 6600 XT 8GB for a game created when 8GB GPU didn't even exist I guess... I can't believe that I'm not getting a smooth and nice experience. 5600X, RX 6600XT and 16GB 3200. A NASA computer for 2013, I just don't understand.

I took every advice, and still I can't play smooth. Here's my graphs forcing Vsync ON in drivers, forcing Vsync OFF in game, and Freesync On. And I installed 3 moths old drivers (Recommended WHQL) that should be the most stable, and yet... can't play on ultra


I don't know how you read the graph too see what happens, but I guess it reflects the stuttering I see.
Don't know if it worth to return the Asus and get a Gigabyte G24F instead, I don't know if I have to RMA the graphics, or what... but it's really frustrating spend all your money to can't play smoothly a 8 years old game on 1080 ultra settings.

EDIT: Even in League of Legends I have this micro stuttering... less, cause it's a shitty game but I still have them. League of legends... you can run that game smoothly on a A8 apu

[Chief Blur Buster]

frametimespikes.png (27.66 KiB) Viewed 16003 times

Those are really nasty frametime spikes that should not need to exist. Near-perfect 50ms frametime spikes? That's full micro-freezes of 1/20sec. That's a full 3 dropped frames at 60Hz, and 8+ dropped frames at 165Hz. That undoubtedly creates an awful experience. There is a clear issue somewhere, that I'm not yet 100% convinced is monitor related.

Have you tried a complete uninstall of all graphics drivers, and reinstall with clean, fresh settings?

Have you perhaps tried a Windows reinstall?

If you have access to a friend's or ability to bring your computer to a computer store (to temporarily test demo monitors there) -- try a 2nd VRR display of a dramatically different brand too. At least to see if any of those fixes microstutters. If none works, then it possibly might be a Radeon-related problem (specimen hopefully). In that case, try testing a different card (AMD or NVIDIA). I've seen it card-side, not just monitor-side. You could even sell your Radeon at a slight profit now, wait two months, and get an even more powerful NVIDIA card for the money you got. GPU prices are currently declining.

Unfortunately, a little more pain of testing is needed. Clean Windows install. Extra monitors and extra GPUs.

Those frametime spikes are not normal -- not even for things like texturestreaming or shader recompiles. Those things don't spike that strongly on modern GPUs.

Let's focus on that specific level in that specific game that creates approximately 10-20+ frametime spikes (to 50ms), for closer diagnosis.

If you can't access extra equipment, can you run exactly the same game in exactly the same locations.
1. Confirm you can reproduce similar frametime spikes.
[repeat capture the frametime graph just like above]
2. Once confirmed, restart the level and see if frametime spikes happen again. (This tests caching; if frametime spikes stops)
[capture a 2nd graph]
3. Now repeat the game (fresh restart), with VRR kept on but turn VSYNC OFF in your GPU control panel instead of VSYNC ON combined with VRR
[capture a 3rd graph]
4. Now repeat the game (fresh restart), with VRR turned off on both the monitor and the GPU, and VSYNC OFF in both the GPU control panel and in-game menu
[capture a 4th graph]

I'd like to compare all 4 graphs, to see if there are some nasty/buggy interactions between the various sync technologies.

The most important thing is we need to stick to 1 game with 1 level that has the most clear microstuttering behaviour -- the graph you just captured is a perfect test to repeat everytime you change settings or hardware/etc. I'm almost certain it is not the monitor, but I would love to at least confirm (with a different VRR monitor). I feel 90% the problem is somewhere else, but we need to do more testing...

(Ideally would like you to also repeat the above once reinstalling windows too, or with a different GPU, or with a different monitor too, but I can settle for just the first 4 new graphs). If you have an old computer tower, move your Radeon into that temporarily, and test it too (might be faster and easier than reinstalling Windows if you've got a working tower handy. You might get a lower frame rate, but at least the frametime spike behavior may be totally different -- this might reveal a motherboard problem (changing slots on the motherboard might also help too -- if there's an issue with the graphics card slot).

[cher87]

frametimespikes.png

Those are really nasty frametime spikes that should not need to exist. Near-perfect 50ms frametime spikes? That's full micro-freezes of 1/20sec. That's a full 3 dropped frames at 60Hz, and 8+ dropped frames at 165Hz. That undoubtedly creates an awful experience. There is a clear issue somewhere, that I'm not yet 100% convinced is monitor related.

Have you tried a complete uninstall of all graphics drivers, and reinstall with clean, fresh settings?

Have you perhaps tried a Windows reinstall?

If you have access to a friend's or ability to bring your computer to a computer store (to temporarily test demo monitors there) -- try a 2nd VRR display of a dramatically different brand too. At least to see if any of those fixes microstutters. If none works, then it possibly might be a Radeon-related problem (specimen hopefully). In that case, try testing a different card (AMD or NVIDIA). I've seen it card-side, not just monitor-side.

Unfortunately, a little more pain of testing is needed. Clean Windows install. Extra monitors and extra GPUs.

Those frametime spikes are not normal -- not even for things like texturestreaming or shader recompiles. Those things don't spike that strongly on modern GPUs.

Let's focus on that specific level in that specific game that creates approximately 10-20+ frametime spikes (to 50ms), for closer diagnosis.

If you can't access extra equipment, can you run exactly the same game in exactly the same locations.
1. Confirm you can reproduce similar frametime spikes.
[repeat capture the frametime graph just like above]
2. Once confirmed, restart the level and see if frametime spikes happen again. (This tests caching; if frametime spikes stops)
[capture a 2nd graph]
3. Now repeat the game (fresh restart), with VRR kept on but turn VSYNC OFF in your GPU control panel instead of VSYNC ON combined with VRR
[capture a 3rd graph]
4. Now repeat the game (fresh restart), with VRR turned off on both the monitor and the GPU, and VSYNC OFF in both the GPU control panel and in-game menu
[capture a 4th graph]

I'd like to compare all 4 graphs, to see if there are some nasty/buggy interactions between the various sync technologies.

The most important thing is we need to stick to 1 game with 1 level that has the most clear microstuttering behaviour -- the graph you just captured is a perfect test to repeat everytime you change settings or hardware/etc.

(Ideally would like you to also repeat the above once reinstalling windows too, or with a different GPU, or with a different monitor too, but I can settle for just the first 4 new graphs). If you have an old computer tower, move your Radeon into that temporarily, and test it too (might be faster and easier than reinstalling Windows if you've got a working tower handy. You might get a lower frame rate, but at least the frametime spike behavior may be totally different -- this might reveal a motherboard problem (changing slots on the motherboard might also help too -- if there's an issue with the graphics card slot).

Thank you for your time man, really appreciated.
I took the time to fully re-install my OS (deleting partition, creating new ones with OS) and installed the best version (according for what I read) of Radeon drivers, and latest chipset and bios updates.

1: Now I can play nicely some games, but not other. I play God of War and it ran perfect... no monitor software or checking fps, just played it and it FEEL fine. Cause on other games numbers are preatty, 120+ FPS blah blah, and I't feels bad.

But I still have stutters on older games like PUBG or league of legends, so I'll do those things you asked me and post them right here, playing PUBG or LOL.
I guess that League Of Legends problems can be related to VRR cause the game it's capped to 240FPS and I have a 144HZ monitor so... maybe FreeSync its causing more troubles than helping? With lowers FPS it drops monitors HZ but with higher I don't know what it does cause It can go 144+ so maybe that causes FPS drops and micro-stutters.

On PUBG things are different cause I don't have that amount of FPS. Playing on ultra I reach between 100 and 140/150 fps so... it should be working fine with VRR. But maybe a bad optimized game to play at ultra settings ?

I couldn't test GTA V yet, I'll do it tomorrow. But maybe it's too much for my GPU to run it everything at MAX possible setting right? Even if I reach a playable 70+ FPS, maybe it's hard to handle to my GPU.

You could even sell your Radeon at a slight profit now, wait two months, and get an even more powerful NVIDIA card for the money you got. GPU prices are currently declining.

Nvidia cards are better? I saw 6600XT like a great option for the price, cause nvidia was crazy prices. Now I could try change this 6600XT for a 3060 TI, will be worth? I see that it's better but no waaay better... a few more FPS, but maybe those FPS are smoother.
I read that, at least on software side, Nvidia it's way better. I mean better drivers. Radeon ones kinda sucks.

I'm almost certain it is not the monitor, but I would love to at least confirm (with a different VRR monitor). I feel 90% the problem is somewhere else, but we need to do more testing...

I'll change my monitor anyways... I wasn't happy with it. I had a 19" old monitor at 60HZ and changing it for this 144HZ wasn't WOW and it Should have been. So i'm getting a XG2405 by ViewSonic, do you know it? It is good?

Thanks! I'll post the new graphs in a few hours.