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Yep! The word here is more "reactive", even Cpate from Logitech talked about this some years ago and generated some discussion on OCN about, higher DPI/CPI doesn't have less input lag, it's just more "reactive", for obvious reasons.

Of course. I'm considering an hipotetical mouse that has a consistent behaviour at any set DPI/CPI value. Some older mice (but still vastly used, like PMW3310 Zowies or some older Deathadder models) for example might have higher input lag on high CPI values because of smoothing frames on the MCU.

Everything will be handicapped by the polling rate frequency anyway, and no one flicks a single count of movement. So it's mostly pointless to raise it, specially at ludicrous levels.

I mean, even at 800 CPI, you're already moving a single count for a 0.08~mm movement, which is already bigger then the average human hair diameter. I'm pretty sure that this is already an excellent value for the average human dexterity limitations.

Even players with very high sensitivity, like s1mple, 800 might be more then enough.

High CPI can feel quite different depending on the engine, also some sensors may have more deviation in some CPI steps then others, which may explain why it might feel so different. Also the visual shimmering that I've posted is a thing that might be affecting your overall "feeling". Because of this shimmering, High CPI feels generally "floaty".

And finally... Most games DOESN'T SUPPORT SUBFRAME INPUT. CS:GO is one of then, and it's already quite limited by the FPS value of the game. Only Reflex Arena and Overwatch support Subframe input AFAIK.

Valorant might also support with the Raw Input Buffer option, but I'm not 100% sure.

I'd say the "usable" range, even for high sensitivity players might be about 400~1600 CPI. But it doesn't necessarily hurt to play at 30000 CPI, it's just pointless.

After that Battlesense analysis, 1600 was set with Raw Accel at a 0.5 multiplier, keeping the menu sensitivity in games where it depends on DPI at 800. (ahem apex).

I don't understand why anyone would limit their DPI when you can simply set it to the highest practical value before input latency improvement plateaus, then multiply that value by the appropriate correction factor to maintain your previous sensitivities.

daniloberserk wrote: ↑

22 Jun 2022, 13:57

And finally... Most games DOESN'T SUPPORT SUBFRAME INPUT. CS:GO is one of then, and it's already quite limited by the FPS value of the game. Only Reflex Arena and Overwatch support Subframe input AFAIK.

Valorant might also support with the Raw Input Buffer option, but I'm not 100% sure.

I recall Razer_TheFriend and at least one other source confirming Valorant does. Anyone else who can confirm?

gametime:photontime is the final ground truth in consistency, so ideally, developers should simply use the mouse-coordinates reported closest to the gametime, since polltime:gametime sync is the key here.

With 8KHz, your average inaccuracy can be reduced to half a poll interval, so 0.5/8000th sec divergence in polltime:gametime sync in theory, if properly deeloped. Ultra low jitter regardless of what sync technology you use.

In proper game development, the main uncertainity left over is the fluctuating rendertimes shifting the gametime:photontime issue (even during VRR). But a game developer should do everything possible.

What I hate is games that buffer outdated mouse coordinates/deltas for too long, rather than collecting/accumulating the freshest rawinput deltas all the way up to rendertime. Whether doing buffered rawinput deltas and adding them up at the very last minute right at rendertime to get the final movement delta that's time-accurate to ~0.5/8000th of a second relative to gametime clock.

hkngo007 wrote: ↑

19 Jun 2022, 04:10

daniloberserk wrote: ↑

18 Jun 2022, 16:45

TL/DR: Enough DPI is enough. It depends on your overall dexterity, sensitivity, screen size and subjective taste.

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First thing that should be clarified once for all. Higher DPI doesn't trigger less INPUT LAG, it's just more "reactive".

You're just lowering the threshold for a single count of movement, that's why CPI/DPI is mouse RESOLUTION. Every count will STILL be hardcapped by your polling rate, it doesn't matter how fast you move.

Of course if you're comparing an 800 DPI to a 400 DPI movement at THE SAME SPEED. 800 DPI will REACT faster, but if you're mantaining your overall eDPI, it will just move half the movement. So in the end... Moving from A to B will take the same time.

NO ONE FLICKS A SINGLE COUNT OF MOVEMENT, so it's mostly useless. First onscreen reaction doesn't make sense in this case because every meaningful movement uses dozens of counts.

And that ARE drawbacks using high DPI with low sensitivity that people doesn't talk about. Since you'll be dividing an angle of movement at degrees smaller then a single pixel on the screen, it does create an "shimmering" visual artifact, specially at the center of the screen. Which may be visually annoying for some people. You can even see what I'm talking about on those examples from mouse sensitivity: https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/forum ... ity-works/

So, while it DOES make the movement more granular, it also introduces an new visual artifact.

And the extra granularity will not raise your precision most of the time. Even hitboxes aren't precise enough to start with...

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To keep it simple. It's mostly an subjective choice TBH. Use whatever value you feel confortable to use in the desktop while browsing, because going higher then this already shows that you don't have enough dexterity to take any advantage of the extra granularity that higher DPI achieves (and you would ONLY take advantage anyway if you're an high sens player).

DPI value is like most measure tools. If you only need a clock to measure seconds, you don't need an clock that can measure nanoseconds. Both will be equally precise to do it's job.

As every thing that is measurable in the material world. Enough is enough.

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I'm honestly sick to see this battlenonsense video spreading misinformation. The same guy who spreaded misinformation about AMD Chill, where an ACTUAL developer of the Chill function answered in the comments and he never cared to answer him or to address the bad methodology he was using.

Thank you. It took me a while to understand the misinformation from battlenonsense video but I agree the initial movement "feels" faster from a count at high dpi (say 400 vs 1600 at same edpi) but from point A to B it the same.

I think battlenonsense video was great for generating him views and income etc and average Joe like me will take his video as holy grail. We need ppl like you to spread the word and fix his mess.

Also I find that at a lower dpi it feels alot easier to maintain straight lines. Ie. Maintaining head level which feels better for say CS GO where ground is perfectly flat/even.

However this also might give tracking heavy games a slight preference to slightly higher dpi like Apex but nothing to do with input lag.

Iv used 400 to 16000 dpi (viper 8khz) and i still feel most comfortable at 400-800dpi. I'm about 45cm/360turn.

You should read chief posts, source engine can’t handle high dpi right so that’s why you feel most comfortable on 400 or 800 dpi.

High-DPI operation works better in Fortnite, Overwatch and Valorant

It helps if you you can get the correct sensitivity numbers -- at least via configuration file, e.g. 3-digit decimal point may be needed, e.g. 400dpi 1.0 sensitivity may translate to 3200dpi 0.125 sensitivity in order to have exact same mouse movement speed). The UI's for sensitivity adjustments are sometimes very opaque and doesn't let you dial in the numbers you need, and sometimes you need to edit a configuration file to get the exact proportional sensitivity adjustment for your DPI adjustment, to get the same mouse feel.

Older engines have less math precision and doesn't do subpixel mouse turns as well as newer engines does. Basically less jittering during mouseturns, and less weirdness (e.g. unwanted acceleration behaviors or erratic pixel skipping, or unwantedly different turn distances for different flick speeds)

That's why nobody in esports use >800dpi for CS:GO but more than one-third of the FaZe team uses 1000dpi or higher in Fortnite.
Source: prosettings.net
Source: prosettings.net

If you adjust to well above 1.0 sensitivity there's less need -- the important thing is that things like a slow sniper scope slew should not feel grainy at any refresh rate. If you only use 400dpi then a half inch flick over a second will provide only 200 mouse reports, and a quarter inch flick only 100 -- if it's a slow slew like during sniper tracking of a running distant enemy, etc -- you can end up having grainy mouse movements at low DPI.

You may not notice a difference during fast flicks at all, but you will notice a difference during slow-slew (e.g. sniper tracking), especially if you use higher sensitivities. That's when low-DPI falls apart.

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

17 Jan 2023, 19:48

High-DPI operation works better in Fortnite, Overwatch and Valorant (provided you can get the correct sensitivity numbers -- at least via configuration file, e.g. 3-digit decimal point may be needed, e.g. 400dpi 1.0 sensitivity may translate to 3200dpi 0.125 sensitivity in order to have exact same mouse movement speed). The UI's for sensitivity adjustments also need to be proportionally dialed in.

Older engines have less math precision and doesn't do subpixel mouse turns as well as newer engines does. Basically less jittering during mouseturns, and less weirdness (e.g. unwanted acceleration behaviors or erratic pixel skipping, or unwantedly different turn distances for different flick speeds)

That's why nobody in esports use >800dpi for CS:GO but more than one-third of the FaZe team uses 1000dpi or higher in Fortnite.
Source: prosettings.net

I'd love your personal recommendations of what dpi's are optimal in which games and which mouse sensors you recommend, logitech claims their superlight sensor has no smoothing at any dpi setting, however i doubt this (i personally always go back to 800 dpi @ 45cm~, but i like to experiment a lot)

It's really hard to say. The mouse, the game, the system, the player. So many variables.

But a clear pattern emerges in that if you haven't grown up in CS:GO esports, you're probably more likely to start out at >800dpi on certain mice.

For newer games that support it well, a probable approximate sweet spot may actually be ~2000Hz poll at ~1600dpi, but YMMV. This compromise is set by current computer performance, game's tolerance of higher poll rates, etc.

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

17 Jan 2023, 19:48

High-DPI operation works better in Fortnite, Overwatch and Valorant

It helps if you you can get the correct sensitivity numbers -- at least via configuration file, e.g. 3-digit decimal point may be needed, e.g. 400dpi 1.0 sensitivity may translate to 3200dpi 0.125 sensitivity in order to have exact same mouse movement speed). The UI's for sensitivity adjustments are sometimes very opaque and doesn't let you dial in the numbers you need, and sometimes you need to edit a configuration file to get the exact proportional sensitivity adjustment for your DPI adjustment, to get the same mouse feel.

Older engines have less math precision and doesn't do subpixel mouse turns as well as newer engines does. Basically less jittering during mouseturns, and less weirdness (e.g. unwanted acceleration behaviors or erratic pixel skipping, or unwantedly different turn distances for different flick speeds)

That's why nobody in esports use >800dpi for CS:GO but more than one-third of the FaZe team uses 1000dpi or higher in Fortnite.
Source: prosettings.net
Source: prosettings.net

If you adjust to well above 1.0 sensitivity there's less need -- the important thing is that things like a slow sniper scope slew should not feel grainy at any refresh rate. If you only use 400dpi then a half inch flick over a second will provide only 200 mouse reports, and a quarter inch flick only 100 -- if it's a slow slew like during sniper tracking of a running distant enemy, etc -- you can end up having grainy mouse movements at low DPI.

You may not notice a difference during fast flicks at all, but you will notice a difference during slow-slew (e.g. sniper tracking), especially if you use higher sensitivities. That's when low-DPI falls apart.

Can you elaborate what exactly makes DPI beyond 800 inferior to lower DPI for source-based (CSGO, Apex) games? I get the argument that it may be harder to find the sensitivity you're already used to, but let's assume a new player is entering CS:GO, why should he use 800 dpi over 3200 dpi?

By the way, it's not true that nobody in CS:GO uses over 800 dpi. For example, Jame uses 25600 dpi, 0.0313 sens (800 edpi), and his team finished #5 in winnings for 2022 and won the Intel Extreme Masters Rio Major 2022. So besides being difficult to configure, what happens if one goes beyond 800 dpi in source-based games?

woland wrote: ↑

18 Jan 2023, 16:52

By the way, it's not true that nobody in CS:GO uses over 800 dpi. For example, Jame uses 25600 dpi, 0.0313 sens (800 edpi), and his team finished #5 in winnings for 2022 and won the Intel Extreme Masters Rio Major 2022. So besides being difficult to configure, what happens if one goes beyond 800 dpi in source-based games?

That's a fantastic anecdote.

With some really good hard-core configuring -- text editing the configuration file for many settings including raw input, ultra-precise sensitivity numbers, etc -- it's possible to make >800dpi usable in CS:GO. But it's not really easy. >800dpi feels simply awful most of the time in CS:GO so I'm pretty impressed he got 25600dpi to work great.

The mouse mathematics inside CS:GO becomes very wonky when you're far away from compensated 800 "edpi", so clearly this gamer found a sweet spot magic 0.0313 sensitivity that eliminted mouse math errors at >800dpi by maintaining 800 edpi. So that's my theory -- the mouse mathematics in CS:GO becomes accurate again at 800 edpi.

It's much how CS:GO goes kinda wonky at >1000fps, concurrently CS:GO also got a sweet spot frame rate range and a sweet spot "edpi" range -- it goes wonky. Mouseturns don't perform consistently across the entire hardware-DPI range at all sensitivity ranges, so the mouse mathematics in the old game aren't as good as the games.

But it's not impossible to fight against it and workaround with magic-number sensitivities that takes some knowledge to calculate.

Keeping it to 800 edpi is definitely key, that preserves training memory (also known as "muscle memory"). Syncing sensitivity across all games is not intuitive to most gamers at oddball DPI;

_____

Now a very deadly serious esports question.

Is there currently any software that can automatically sync "edpi" across all games, and automatically recomputes/recalculates/rewrite configuration files, everytime you change mouse DPI?

Play at 800dpi, exit the game, change your mouse DPI higher and restart the software, no change to your fast flicks. Except your slow flicks improve. Your mouseturns are still the same speed -- except your slowslews (sniper, slow crosshair tracking, and more jitter-free slowturns with unaffected fast flickturns etc) starts to feel massively better at >800dpi.

This would help train gamers on why high DPI is a gigantic boon, if configured properly.

There's a need for such edpi-synchronization software in the esports industry, to break out of the 400dpi-800dpi dregs without wrecking training memories (muscle memory).

Choosing 800edpi in an edpi system tray app while your mouse is at 3200dpi, and seeing all your games automatically sync (configuration files modified by the Automatic EDPI System Tray App, etc) would be a giant boon. No manual calculating, no edpi wizards, no wrecked muscle memories, etc. Perfect sensitivity numbers in all of them.

An automatic edpi configuator would be a good compromise before my proposed High Definition Mouse Extensions API Proposal.

It would need to know how to modify the configuration files of the common games (CS:GO, Fortnite, Valorant, Rocket League, Overwatch, DOTA2, LoL, and other popular esports games) but it would allow 3200dpi+ nirvana in esports on modern mouse sensors without wrecking 800dpi muscle memories (training memory).

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

18 Jan 2023, 18:10

the mouse mathematics in CS:GO becomes accurate again at 800 edpi.

It's much how CS:GO goes kinda wonky at >1000fps, concurrently CS:GO also got a sweet spot frame rate range and a sweet spot "edpi" range -- it goes wonky.

So bases of this. The sweet spot edpi is 800.

But what is the sweet spot frame rate range?

Should I cap at 400 fps or?