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Re: I see no difference when VRR and Vsync is off
Posted: 30 Sep 2023, 17:17
by Clyff
jorimt wrote: ↑30 Sep 2023, 17:01
Clyff wrote: ↑30 Sep 2023, 16:47
So currently im playing stuff like Warzone, Valorant, League, and some RPGs and MMOs on Windows 11. I think most of the games are just Borderless Windowed i dont play a single game in exclusive fullscreen.
As for MPO i never heard of it.
A couple of the games you mentioned are DX12, which uses a newer flip model that makes borderless fullscreen behave more like traditional exclusive fullscreen. In other words, it can tear with V-SYNC off.
As for MPO, if you've never heard of it, it's probably already enabled. It too allows legacy borderless/window mode to tear when V-SYNC is off.
Finally, there's an option in newer versions of Windows 11 that makes legacy borderless/windowed mode behave more like exclusive fullscreen (similar to the DX12 flip model):
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/win ... 389e535952
Clyff wrote: ↑30 Sep 2023, 16:47
do you even feel the impact of an additional 8-16ms of input lag?
"Do you?" is the more important question in this case. Try the app in the below thread to get a better idea:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9675
What I will say is, G-SYNC is primarily for players that can't tolerate tearing artifacts and want the most consistent frame delivery within the refresh rate without adding the stutter or latency standalone V-SYNC does.
The lowest latency scenario (even if not by much at 240Hz and up) still will always be no-sync + uncapped framerate + GPU usage below 99%.
Clyff wrote: ↑30 Sep 2023, 16:47
Edit: ive tested Sea of Thieves which runs in Fullscreen at 30 FPS capped and dont see tearing so idk
The higher the refresh rate, the more difficult it is to see tearing artifacts:
https://blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101- ... ettings/6/
At 240Hz it becomes harder to tell, especially compared to 60Hz, and especially if you aren't sensitive to tearing artifacts to begin with.
Alright thank you very much for elaborating.
I was just confused and still am unsure haha because when i turned vrr and vsync off today in NVCP i didnt notice any tearing whatsoever but the VRR flicker is annoying af and then i read on reddit that in borderless window games vsync is still forced by windows which would mean i cant really turn it off and still have the input lag. So as far as i understand now win 11 does not force vsync in games doesnt matter if fullscreen or not (if its disabled in NVCP)?
I can actually see the tearing on the input lag test you mentioned but still i dont see it anywhere ingame.
maybe its my old eye but the difference in 1ms and 100ms lag is almost non existent, there is a difference no question but ye thats about it.
To add on that is there something like a baseline input lag on an OLED monitor, where these 16 ms would be on top of?
Re: I see no difference when VRR and Vsync is off
Posted: 30 Sep 2023, 18:34
by jorimt
Clyff wrote: ↑30 Sep 2023, 17:17
So as far as i understand now win 11 does not force vsync in games doesnt matter if fullscreen or not (if its disabled in NVCP)?
It
shouldn't, but it can still vary by game/API/engine, even with all the aforementioned methods in place (MPO, etc).
Clyff wrote: ↑30 Sep 2023, 17:17
To add on that is there something like a baseline input lag on an OLED monitor, where these 16 ms would be on top of?
There's accumulative input latency all the way down the chain, from human > input device > system > display. We've only been discussing the impact of sync latency on the system-side.
As for monitor latency itself, yes, it exists separately of system (and other forms of) latency, and it will vary by model. But most modern VRR displays typically have under 5ms (many sub-1ms) of processing latency.
But if you're looking at even a very high-end and optimized setup, we're still typically talking at least 16-30ms of total input-to-display latency, which, granted, is extremely low by, say, the standards of console gaming 10 years ago, where it wouldn't be uncommon to have 200ms+ of total latency (sometimes easily up to 1/2 second) before input reflected on the display.
Re: I see no difference when VRR and Vsync is off
Posted: 01 Oct 2023, 02:04
by Clyff
Alright then ill probably leave it as it is for now as it seems to work fine for me. Hopefully theyll come up with a solution for the VRR issue soon.
Thanks for your help.
Re: I see no difference when VRR and Vsync is off
Posted: 01 Oct 2023, 09:38
by jorimt
Clyff wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023, 02:04
Hopefully theyll come up with a solution for the VRR issue soon.
VRR flicker on OLED is currently a hardware limitation at the panel-level, so it's ultimately up to the panel suppliers to permanently address, not the monitor manufacturers. I.E. current-gen OLED owners should not expect this to be fixed or even mitigated via a firmware update or settings change, for instance.
It's already been over 3 years since the first WOLED to support VRR operation (LG CX) released, and even the QD-OLED panel types from a different panel supplier released years later have had the exact same issue, so this is obviously something fundamental with OLED (regardless of type) that prevents it from being easily addressed, but we'll see.
Clyff wrote: ↑01 Oct 2023, 02:04
Thanks for your help.
Sure thing.
Re: I see no difference when VRR and Vsync is off
Posted: 01 Oct 2023, 17:21
by Clyff
Well yea, can't have the perfect monitor unfortunately.
I heard samsung has this thing called VRR control but i guess it also just something that adds input lag again so idk.