Blur Busters Forums

NeonPizza wrote: ↑

27 Jul 2024, 15:41

Will there be a future RetroTINK scaler than can do BFI at '4K' for 60fps games, and also 4K for 24-30fps movie/TV content?

Well, we are currently at the 3rd iteration of the RetroTink, so yeah... eventually it will happen when more powerful FPGAs or ASICs come out and go down in price.
IIRC the 4K came about a lot sooner than Mike had expected.

NeonPizza wrote: ↑

27 Jul 2024, 15:41

Either they get both lower, if possible, or TV manufactures achieve less than 10ms for modern OLED 60fps game mode.

You're misunderstanding those numbers
That's 10ms at the center of the screen for 60hz(with boost mode/prevent input delay enabled which prevents usage of the built-in BFI unfortunately)
So that means about ~2ms added lag
They could get that number down to sub-milliseconds like in OLED Monitors if they used more powerful electronics
Without boost mode it's 13ms at the center of the screen for 60hz which translated to about ~4-5ms of added lag

With RT4K's BFI you get less lag overall because you can also combine that with boost mode too

thatoneguy wrote: ↑

28 Jul 2024, 09:23

NeonPizza wrote: ↑

27 Jul 2024, 15:41

Will there be a future RetroTINK scaler than can do BFI at '4K' for 60fps games, and also 4K for 24-30fps movie/TV content?

Well, we are currently at the 3rd iteration of the RetroTink, so yeah... eventually it will happen when more powerful FPGAs or ASICs come out and go down in price.
IIRC the 4K came about a lot sooner than Mike had expected.

NeonPizza wrote: ↑

27 Jul 2024, 15:41

Either they get both lower, if possible, or TV manufactures achieve less than 10ms for modern OLED 60fps game mode.

You're misunderstanding those numbers
That's 10ms at the center of the screen for 60hz(with boost mode/prevent input delay enabled which prevents usage of the built-in BFI unfortunately)
So that means about ~2ms added lag
They could get that number down to sub-milliseconds like in OLED Monitors if they used more powerful electronics
Without boost mode it's 13ms at the center of the screen for 60hz which translated to about ~4-5ms of added lag

With RT4K's BFI you get less lag overall because you can also combine that with boost mode too

I keep getting different answers through YouTube. But I don't think everybody is testing both the Tink4K with their OLED TV using the same lag measurement device.

A QD-OLED, like both the S90D & S90C, measured around 10ms in 60fps game mode, according to RTNGS. Then there's lag coming from Tink4K(Combined with Frame lock) which equals to either 2-2.5ms(Somebody recently said it's 5-6ms on YT... Which is it?) and then another 8.3ms from Tink4K's internal Black frame insertion.

2-2.5ms - (Tink4k + FrameLock. Frame lock is needed in order to use Tink4K's BFI I'm guessing?)
8.3ms - (Tink4K's Internal BFI)
10ms - (Samsung S90C/S90D's Game mode in 60fps)

Total lag: 20-21ms

Wouldn't that be correct? And isn't the S90C's boost mode automatically integrated into game mode, rather than something like an LG C1 which gives you the option to use boost over standard. Boost mode on that particular set has near black/gamma issues, which over brightens darker areas. Some guy on YouTube got around 9ms with his C1 in standard, and about 2.5ms using Boost mode, measured with a Time Sleuth. But i'm not entirely sure if this applies to Samsung's S90C or S90D.

And whenever the next Tink arrives with 4K + 60fps support, and 4K + 24-30fps I'l be there day one, as it will finally allow me to jump to 77" QD-OLED from 65". 65" is a nice size and all, but it's nothing new. 65" plasmas were a thing since 2012/2013. The 4K combined with a 50% blur reduction, or better at least a 75% reduction with the next scaler would be the dream!

Not correct

10ms number is at the middle of the screen so 10ms - 8.3 = 1.7ms... so it's about 1.7ms of added lag there from the panel(if 10ms exactly, I think Samsung is about 10.3 or 10.6ms with a boost mode of somekind like LG's OLED TVs)

RT4K BFI is low lag since it presents the active frame before the black frame. It's lower lag than LG's BFI.

AFAIK this is for original retro console
It's ~2ms Frame Lock + 60fps framerate(16.67ms) + 60hz scanout(16.67ms)(despite 120hz it's still the same scanout lag in original console, but in emulator you can use Quick Frame Transport to be lower lag than original hardware by lowering the scanout lag) + about 1ms lag from the panel at 120hz

Since RT4k does BFI at 120hz the LG OLED panel lag is also lower at that refresh rate

thatoneguy wrote: ↑

29 Jul 2024, 15:58

Not correct

10ms number is at the middle of the screen so 10ms - 8.3 = 1.7ms... so it's about 1.7ms of added lag there from the panel(if 10ms exactly, I think Samsung is about 10.3 or 10.6ms with a boost mode of somekind like LG's OLED TVs)

RT4K BFI is low lag since it presents the active frame before the black frame. It's lower lag than LG's BFI.

AFAIK this is for original retro console
It's ~2ms Frame Lock + 60fps framerate(16.67ms) + 60hz scanout(16.67ms)(despite 120hz it's still the same scanout lag in original console, but in emulator you can use Quick Frame Transport to be lower lag than original hardware by lowering the scanout lag) + about 1ms lag from the panel at 120hz

Since RT4k does BFI at 120hz the LG OLED panel lag is also lower at that refresh rate

RTNGS scored the S90C's game mode, when using 1080p @60Hz with 10.1ms(Middle).

So overall, for both modern and retro gaming >

2ms - (Tink4K + Frame Lock)
8.3ms - (Tink4K BFI)
About 2ms (Samsung S90C's 60fps game mode)

Which would give me a total of around 12ms of input lag total when all said and done? If so that's pretty awesome, other than being limited to 1080p. 4K compatibility I'm sure will come in time with a future TINK scaler once it becomes more affordable to use obviously.

For now, i'll gladly take a 50% motion blur reduction @1080p, rather than 100% motion blur at @4K. The latter just doesn't cut it in most cases! Especially for any game that's in first person.

NeonPizza wrote: ↑

30 Jul 2024, 21:14

RTNGS scored the S90C's game mode, when using 1080p @60Hz with 10.1ms(Middle).

So overall, for both modern and retro gaming >

2ms - (Tink4K + Frame Lock)
8.3ms - (Tink4K BFI)
About 2ms (Samsung S90C's 60fps game mode)

Which would give me a total of around 12ms of input lag total when all said and done? If so that's pretty awesome, other than being limited to 1080p. 4K compatibility I'm sure will come in time with a future TINK scaler once it becomes more affordable to use obviously.

For now, i'll gladly take a 50% motion blur reduction @1080p, rather than 100% motion blur at @4K. The latter just doesn't cut it in most cases! Especially for any game that's in first person.

No, the 8ms figure is misleading. With BFI you're running at 120hz so that is where that figure is coming from.
If you ran at 60hz refresh you would get 16.67ms, so with BFI at 120hz you're just canceling out half the framerate since black frames are not active, so effectively you're still getting 60hz refresh rate input lag(16.67ms of lag) just with BFI.
The console itself is still 60hz scanout, so you cannot lower that figure.
If BFI adds any additional lag on top of that it may be a millisecond for buffering, but I'm not sure about that. I know HDR adds some lag but that's a different thing.
The RT4K 120hz also lowers that 2ms lag to 1ms lag because the TV is basically running at 120hz, so basically it acts the same way the TV would.
The rest is the same.
So it is ~2ms Frame Lock + 60fps game framerate(16.67ms) + 60hz console scanout signal(16.67ms) + 1ms lag(120hz LG OLED scanout).
This is btw not counting input lag from games(for example Mega Man X on SNES has 2 frames or lag or something like that).

If you're only counting ''added lag'' from the panel and RT4K, then the added lag from RT4K + LG(Samsung?) OLED is about 3-5ms total.
The takeway is that on LG OLED + RT4K set up you get a very fast set-up that is comparable to a CRT in terms of input responsiveness.

thatoneguy wrote: ↑

01 Aug 2024, 08:57

NeonPizza wrote: ↑

30 Jul 2024, 21:14

RTNGS scored the S90C's game mode, when using 1080p @60Hz with 10.1ms(Middle).

So overall, for both modern and retro gaming >

2ms - (Tink4K + Frame Lock)
8.3ms - (Tink4K BFI)
About 2ms (Samsung S90C's 60fps game mode)

Which would give me a total of around 12ms of input lag total when all said and done? If so that's pretty awesome, other than being limited to 1080p. 4K compatibility I'm sure will come in time with a future TINK scaler once it becomes more affordable to use obviously.

For now, i'll gladly take a 50% motion blur reduction @1080p, rather than 100% motion blur at @4K. The latter just doesn't cut it in most cases! Especially for any game that's in first person.

No, the 8ms figure is misleading. With BFI you're running at 120hz so that is where that figure is coming from.
If you ran at 60hz refresh you would get 16.67ms, so with BFI at 120hz you're just canceling out half the framerate since black frames are not active, so effectively you're still getting 60hz refresh rate input lag(16.67ms of lag) just with BFI.
The console itself is still 60hz scanout, so you cannot lower that figure.
If BFI adds any additional lag on top of that it may be a millisecond for buffering, but I'm not sure about that. I know HDR adds some lag but that's a different thing.
The RT4K 120hz also lowers that 2ms lag to 1ms lag because the TV is basically running at 120hz, so basically it acts the same way the TV would.
The rest is the same.
So it is ~2ms Frame Lock + 60fps game framerate(16.67ms) + 60hz console scanout signal(16.67ms) + 1ms lag(120hz LG OLED scanout).
This is btw not counting input lag from games(for example Mega Man X on SNES has 2 frames or lag or something like that).

If you're only counting ''added lag'' from the panel and RT4K, then the added lag from RT4K + LG(Samsung?) OLED is about 3-5ms total.
The takeway is that on LG OLED + RT4K set up you get a very fast set-up that is comparable to a CRT in terms of input responsiveness.

I think it's absolute BS that TV manufactures like Samsung & LG aren't including quality 60hz BFI in their TV's with lower input lag, while including the ability to force HDR brightness into SDR to compensate for the 50% cut down/drop in brightness when using it's 8.3ms persistence BFI.While also including 24-30fps triple strobe BFI for movies and TV. As is we're getting a 16ms persistence(100% motion Blur) which is just awful, and excess choppy film judder for movies and TV shows. Thank god the Tink4K exists.

Sure OLED TV sticker prices would jump up a little, but i feel like the 50% reduction in blur and reduction in OLED film/TV judder is integral and SAVES QD-OLED, while transforming it into a legit Plasma-killer. But most people don't care unfortunately. MOST of those people are coming from lousier smearing LED TV's that they've grown accustomed to since the late 2000's & 2010's...So for them OLED motion is a substantial upgrade. When in reality it's a substantial downgrade without proper quality BFI which over 95% of OLED buyers probably won't even use or look into.

RealNC wrote: ↑

27 Jul 2024, 08:29

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

17 Jul 2024, 15:15

Did you know Retrotink 4K does BFI?

Did you know the Retrotink 4K costs $750?

While expensive compared to many things...

A literal bargain, if you're familiar with the history of video processors. In 2000-2004, I worked on video processors that had a MSRP of $4999. Faroudja was a big name back in those days.

Back in 1996, a Faroudja line quadrupler device capable of upconverting LaserDisc to HDTV resolutions, cost five figures for less of the functions that Retrotink 4K does, when used with early graphics CRT projectors of the time.

Now, equivalent functions are built into commoditized chips built into many TVs.

However, specialization costs a fair bit of money.

It also happens to be the world's only hardware-based BFI injector box capable of all settings that www.testufo.com/blackframes#easteregg=1 can muster. It's THAT configurable -- you want a 150Hz ModeLine with a PAL two-thirds motion-blur-reducer BFI? Done. Try that even with one of the more expensive video processor boxes sold to movie theaters and conference rooms.

Also, as far as I know, nothing on the market under $1500 exists that does this. - None can accept VHS/DVD/television/LaserDisc analog video input, deinterlace the movie frames, and output 1080p24/48/72/96/120 (custom Hz your pick), fully dejuddered. Google "High end video processors", and you begin to realize that the Retrotink 4K does some of the functions that these higher end boxes are doing, such as 3:2 deinterlace.

Just try it. Can you find cheaper analog-3:2-interlaced input, 24/48/72/96/120 digital scaled output (Even without CRT filters), at new price? These are priorities that a home theater "24p" fan (topic title!!!) often generally looks for, often people who visits AVSCIENCE Forums. Even the cheaper PixelFX Morph 4K (yoohoo, hire me!) product failed to deliver on this lineitem, and it also doesn't provide nearly as much BFI configurability.

It's an expensive box for a retro fan, but pretty cheap by home-theater-enthusiast standards (of Faroudja/Runco fame).

Can you reply with a cheaper alternative of topic title fame, RealNC?

I tried. Couldn't find any at this price class. Not even on Alibaba/Aliexpress.

With some boxes, yes -- you'll get more features like better resolution (4K, 10bit HDR etc). You'll do some lineitems better than Retrotink 4K. But the full frontal 24p flexibility combined with the full frontal BFI configurability? Just try. No other product exists. (yet!)

Now... you can jerryrig a bunch of HTPC stuff, like an Elgato and a PC-based video processor, but those PC parts will generally total more than $750 too. And you have to spend a lot of time configuring and gluing together (or programming your own) software to do the features. For things that Retrotink 4K essentially does out of the box (even without getting to do a ModeLine yet). I was the moderator of the AVSFORUM Home Theater Computers forum in 1999, before NVIDIA released their first GeForce256 GPU.

When do you think we'll see a future Tink Scaler that supports 4K(Instead of 1080p) @24-30fps & 60fps using 240hz BFI, giving us a 75% reduction in motion blur, along with the same film judder reduction(Being better than both Plasma & CRT) that's already included with TINK4K"s 144hz triple strobe BFI setting?

I wonder if 240hz QD-OLED TV's at 55, 65 & 77" TV's will actually be a thing in 2025?.

NeonPizza wrote: ↑

27 Jul 2024, 15:41

I'll be picking up a Tink4K in the next month, but It's just a tad disappointing that it's BFI for both of the following above is capped at 1080p, but it makes sense at this point since 4K compatibility would of jacked the price up even higher.

Did you get one? Are you happy with it?