The future of strobing display tech

[flood]

Ill take a 300hz flicker free OLED over any flickerfest lightboost panel any day of the week.

at >120hz the flicker isn't a problem for almost all people except those who are pwm sensitive

Also, you say 3ms persistance.... cuz you assume the motion will be at 1000 pixels per second?
What if the motion is at 300 pixels per second? (say GTA, not quake)... THEN my 300hz OLED will have EXACTLY CRT motion clarity @ 1ms persistance.

persistence is independent of motion speed
1 / 300hz = 3.33ms

Also, whats with the obsession with getting to that absolute CRT quality? You enjoy flicker/stutter/tearing THAT MUCH?

there is no obsession. i'm just stating that 300hz full persistence doesn't give the same amount of motion blur as a crt at any refresh rate. sure the motion quality is probably better but the persistence-related motion blur is not.

Wave your hand in front of your eyes... notice the natural blur?
A 100% blurless screen would look cool ye, but definitely not vital and not natural.

actually it's more natural as large amounts of persistence introduces additional motion blur whenever eye-tracking occurs.

[Edmond]

persistence is independent of motion speed
1 / 300hz = 3.33ms

Is that how it works? I was sure a second ago we get the 3.33ms persistance, because we assume the motion of 1000 pixels per second on 300fpshz, therefore 1000/300 = 3.33. NO?

So, if the motion of pixels per second isnt higher than 300 pixels per second at 300fpshz, the persistance would be 1ms... seemed quite solid to me after i read all the original articles about it.

[flood]

check your units...

[sIZ#t3XCX$t3*%b1^M0B]

If a pixel is constantly illuminated and potentially changes 300 times per second, you have an absolute minimum of 3.33...ms of persistence. That pixel is guaranteed to be the exact same thing until you hit one of those 300 changes, and you'll only hit one of those 300 every 3.33...ms. That will be true if you are moving something by just one pixel in one second or by 1000.

So with that laid out, I return to one of my questions, if you run at 60 fps, on a flicker-free OLED, you'll still end up with 16.66...ms of persistence, yielding a significant amount of blur. So, if parity with reality is the goal, the ideal answer has to be super high refresh and strobe rates to kill the perception of flicker and matching frame rates to effectively kill blur, stutter and tearing. But is the consensus that we won't see a commercial combination of VRR and strobing to get the best of both without needing impossible GPUs?

If that's the case, then I'll almost certainly have to go with good VRR on something like a super fast OLED.

[Edmond]

If a pixel is constantly illuminated and potentially changes 300 times per second, you have an absolute minimum of 3.33...ms of persistence. That pixel is guaranteed to be the exact same thing until you hit one of those 300 changes, and you'll only hit one of those 300 every 3.33...ms. That will be true if you are moving something by just one pixel in one second or by 1000.

Ye, thats what i was trying to say.

So with that laid out, I return to one of my questions, if you run at 60 fps, on a flicker-free OLED, you'll still end up with 16.66...ms of persistence, yielding a significant amount of blur. So, if parity with reality is the goal, the ideal answer has to be super high refresh and strobe rates to kill the perception of flicker and matching frame rates to effectively kill blur, stutter and tearing. But is the consensus that we won't see a commercial combination of VRR and strobing to get the best of both without needing impossible GPUs?

If that's the case, then I'll almost certainly have to go with good VRR on something like a super fast OLED.

Ye, but that persistence blur is the only thing left. Since OLED has pixel response times of 0.01ms for ALL color shifts, not just grey2grey - OLED doesnt need any overdrive, so no overdrive artifacts; also no ghsoting, no trailing or whatever... NONE of it. That makes motion on OLED 60hz look way better than on 60hz LCD already.
Yes, the pixel persistance blur remains, but decreases as the FPS goes higher.

And i refuse to accept flicker+stutter+tearing to reduce the blur on lower framerates with other means. Its a nother fucking tradeoff.

Combine flicker free OLED with VRR and you have removed all motion and refresh artifacts except blur and need for anti aliasing - which become less and less of an issue with increased max refresh and resolution - and these things can be raised overtime afterwards, but first i think the artifact free display is a priority i think. Thats how i see it anyway.

[flood]

Is that how it works? I was sure a second ago we get the 3.33ms persistance, because we assume the motion of 1000 pixels per second on 300fpshz, therefore 1000/300 = 3.33. NO?

So, if the motion of pixels per second isnt higher than 300 pixels per second at 300fpshz, the persistance would be 1ms... seemed quite solid to me after i read all the original articles about it.

and you'll only hit one of those 300 every 3.33...ms. That will be true if you are moving something by just one pixel in one second or by 1000.

Ye, thats what i was trying to say.

lol ok

[sIZ#t3XCX$t3*%b1^M0B]

I have to say, I feel like I've noticed much more persistence motion blur than I have ghosting. I just went crazy for a bit testing ghosting and overdrive issues. I think I'll go with 40.

Well, as you said, it gets better as fps and refresh rates go up. The problem is that, while refresh rates will get up to a point where they no longer need to increase, fps won't. Not for new stuff. The amount of work it takes to generate a frame from a video game is going to just keep going up. Sure, old things will start to look more and more crisp as long as the new hardware will support it, but that's not the solution I want.

Anyone else have any thoughts: flood? RealNC? Are we going to see a commercial implementation of strobing and VRR or is that going to be left to hobbyists and enthusiasts to muck around with?

[RealNC]

Anyone else have any thoughts: flood? RealNC? Are we going to see a commercial implementation of strobing and VRR or is that going to be left to hobbyists and enthusiasts to muck around with?

I don't think hobbyists can do much about it. It requires some serious engineering effort to build such displays and a very strong backlight, because variable refresh strobing would result in three aspects other than the refresh rate varying over time: brightness, flicker and blur. Imagine the image getting dimmer and brighter all over the place depending on FPS.

I don't know if anyone will commit to solving those problems.

[Edmond]

I don't think hobbyists can do much about it. It requires some serious engineering effort to build such displays and a very strong backlight, because variable refresh strobing would result in three aspects other than the refresh rate varying over time: brightness, flicker and blur. Imagine the image getting dimmer and brighter all over the place depending on FPS.

I don't know if anyone will commit to solving those problems.

Since gsync is dead as soon as freesync is out... The current predictions about gsync is that nvidia wont abandon the module but use it to bring more improvements to displays that freesync cant do. Because Tom Peterson has talked about this once in an interview.

This was not his response to strobing + VRR question, but this question did come up in the same interview, to which he said "its definitely and engineering challenge, no comment otherwise".

Even if nvidia manages to combine strobing and VRR, it wont work on any gsync modules that exist today, it will be a new version. Also if this would be done, then it will be ready by the time OLED monitors start appearing, so there... the value of it is diminished right off the bat, the masses wont QQ about motion when they see OLED.
And im not sure what else is there to really solve for displays.

lol ok

How old are you? Just curious.

[RealNC]

Also if this would be done, then it will be ready by the time OLED monitors start appearing, so there... the value of it is diminished right off the bat, the masses wont QQ about motion when they see OLED.

I still don't see how OLED would lower motion blur without strobing.