Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

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Royal
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by Royal » 16 Dec 2015, 15:39

Input resolutions: 2D: 480i/p, 576i/p, 720p@50/60, 1080i@50/60 and 1080p@50/60; 3D: 720p@50/60 (Frame Packing and Side-by-Side), 1080p@24 (Frame Packing)

Output resolution 1080p@60Hz only (per laser projector)

(It can also automatically detect if 3D content is Side-by-Side or Frame Packing)
Does the MPCL-1 or your monitor setup utilize an upscaler? Because even if the projectors draw the image line by line, upscaling (and especially deinterlacing) low resolutions will always introduce input lag. Did you test for it yet? How does one of those projectors respond to a 240p analogue signal? What kind of input connections to the monitor setup will you have, other than HDMI?

*EDIT*

I CAN NOW SEND PMs! Unfortunately, someone snatched the Microvision showwx+ I was looking at on Amazon. Which means the only laser pico pro I can get at 480i/p is the I-Connect brand showwx on ebay. If it's going to be like that, then I'd rather save money for Light's monitor.

Having two laser monitors (at 4:3, 640x480 and 16:9 1920x1080, both interlaced and progressive) would be sweet as it is, but if a major company picked this up, and I woke up one day to see a 4k 120hz laser monitor/television with passive 3D and High Dynamic Range being advertised for sale?
http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... -vomit.gif

projectormonitor
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by projectormonitor » 17 Dec 2015, 04:21

Light23 wrote:
projectormonitor wrote:is refresh rate limited 60 hz? anything less than 120hz would be quite disadvantageous for competitive gaming.
I have overclocked my showwx+ to 120Hz but the screen shifts upward (Still smooth motion despite), thus changing the mirror layout I have in the monitor enclosure. I might be able to do some more tweaking on the Sony but for now its just 60Hz.
oo. So it is possible to achieve 120hz. Please let us know when and if you plan to make these.

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Light23
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by Light23 » 21 Dec 2015, 16:56

The more I think about the 3D version of my laser monitor, the more I am convinced of a better way to do 3D than polarization. Since the lasers use VERY narrow wavelengths I could use bandpass filters for glasses.

Each of the Bandpass filters pass 3 narrow band of spectrum as illustrated in the following figure.
Image
This bandpass filter system can provide good separation of the right and left images as seen by the viewer’s right and left eyes, and thus low 3D crosstalk/ghosting, no light loss with this filter system make it VERY practical for use with my 2 laser video projectors outfitted with the appropriate wavelength lasers for each projector.

The advantage of this system over the use of polarization as the basis for a passive 3D system is this system is brighter and can be used with my unconventional projection screens instead of requiring the use of a silver screen.


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Last edited by Light23 on 11 Jan 2016, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.

spacediver
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by spacediver » 21 Dec 2015, 19:34

interesting idea. Just so I understand, the colors would be slightly different between the two eyes, right?

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Light23
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by Light23 » 21 Dec 2015, 21:21

spacediver wrote:interesting idea. Just so I understand, the colors would be slightly different between the two eyes, right?

Image

spacediver
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by spacediver » 22 Dec 2015, 00:23

might be a workaround if you're willing to work with a reduced gamut, although might not be necessary if the perceptual differences are negligible.

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Light23
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by Light23 » 26 Dec 2015, 08:15

spacediver wrote:might be a workaround if you're willing to work with a reduced gamut, although might not be necessary if the perceptual differences are negligible.
The increased color gamut would still be there since both eyes are 'color mixing' in the brain and perceived at once.

Two Sony laser projectors are at the heart of my new 3d monitor (and 2d monitor) and will be combined (in BOTH versions) via a polarizing beamsplitter cube. The beamspliter cube acts as a signal wavelength separator for the 3d monitor and an increase in 50% brightness and color gamut in the normal 2d monitor.

Each projector in my 3d setup will have replacement Osram laser diodes according to the wavelength specs for each bandpass optic. And since the lasers are on such a narrow nm bandwidth (MUCH more so than LEDs) all of the lasers light would shine through one bandpass filter optic of the right eye but be COMPLETELY blocked by the bandpass filter of the left eye, even though they both allow 100% of red, green and blue from 1 projector each therefore allowing you to see with no dimming.







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RLBURNSIDE
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by RLBURNSIDE » 01 Jan 2016, 15:25

test123 wrote:Thanks a lot for comprehensive response!
One last question: is it possible to achieve 120+ hz refresh rate so it can be used for gaming? Maybe by overlaying 2 projectors with 2 different inputs and cycling between both with graphic card? I guess that would require custom software?
Doesn't work, you can't double the FPS using two projectors showing each 60hz signal out of sync by half a frame, without cutting the brightness in half.

Basically you would have to do this:

At 60hz each frame is normally 16ms in duration. You would have to show black for half the time, or 8ms.

At time = 0ms : Projector A, Frame 1, held for 8ms
At time = 8ms : Projector B, Frame 2, held for 8ms

This would obviously cut the light in half. So for the cost of two projectors yes you could do it but you wouldn't gain 2x the brightness from using two projectors, it would be the same brightness at double the framerate.

Of course you would still have to align both projectors perfectly which is far from ideal, especially when you use projectors without lens shift. If you tried to do this with two (or more) laser pico projectors as-is, you'd have to basically have one aimed straight at the wall, and another below it, at an angle, and use the keystone adjustment which cuts brightness (and sharpness due to extra image processing for the skew) so of course you'd have to cut brightness on the main one as well. And even then, it wouldn't be perfectly aligned, because, well, in the real world there is no such thing as perfect alignment. Most 1-chip DLPs for example are sharper than 3-chip DLPs for this reason. It's very, very difficult to align images, especially when the perspective of one is skewed. If you used a lens to do lens shift on one of the pico projectors, that would work too, but of course lens shift also introduces some amount of chromatic aberration, which is why for example the standard advice on AVS forums for projector owners is to minimize the use of lens shift as much as possible.

RLBURNSIDE
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by RLBURNSIDE » 01 Jan 2016, 15:42

Light23 wrote:The more I think about the 3D version of my laser monitor, the more I am convinced of a better way to do 3D than polarization. Since the lasers use VERY narrow wavelengths I could use bandpass filters for glasses.

Each of the Bandpass filters pass 3 narrow band of spectrum as illustrated in the following figure.
Image
This bandpass filter system can provide good separation of the right and left images as seen by the viewer’s right and left eyes, and thus low 3D crosstalk/ghosting, no light loss with this filter system make it VERY practical for use with my 2 laser video projectors outfitted with the appropriate wavelength lasers for each projector.

The advantage of this system over the use of polarization as the basis for a passive 3D system is this system is brighter and can be used with my unconventional projection screens instead of requiring the use of a silver screen.
The system you're describing is basically 6P 3D, ala Dolby 3D. It's indeed much more efficient than dual-projector passive 3D polarization which loses 50% of the light, twice, once at the projector end and once at the viewer through their glasses, for an overall lumen efficiency of 25%. Dolby has achieved about 43% lumen efficiency with their 6P system, which is the best achieved so far. The max theoretical efficiency is 50%, regardless of the technique used. Intuitively, when you wear the polarizing glasses, you lose 50% of the light, namely the light meant for only one eye, not both.

However with direct laser projection you could easily just rotate one set of lasers by 90% and thereby cut down your loss of light to the bare minimum theoretically possible, which is 50%, by removing the need to use a polarizing filter at each projector. Lasers are already linearly polarized.

Of course to eliminate cross-talk you'd still want a single polarizing lens at each projector just to make 100% sure that 100% of the light coming out is aligned properly, but that would only lose a couple % of lumens.

The big problem with polarized 3D projection is because your screen needs to preserve polarization, which means it has to be silver or metallic which has its own issues (hotspotting, and speckle would be worse, plus the cost). I'm not even sure it's possible to do passive polarized 3D with rear-projection anyway, I'd be curious how the polarization could be maintained when light is travelling through a screen. Pretty sure it's impossible, so 6P is indeed a much better way to do it if you're going rear-projection.

But direct laser projection is only going to remain a very low lumen device, due to FCC regulations which are your enemy (but your eyes' friends). No commercial company is going to sell high lumen direct laser beam projectors, it would literally burn people's retinas if they walked by the image and sat on the couch. Rear projection might be one way to get around the dangers of direct laser projection, but good luck trying to convince a government regulator to approve your product unless you've run safety tests.

Projectors like this are totally different in practice from laser-illuminated projectors, which simply replace the xenon or LEDs with lasers (usually two blue lasers, with one for blue color and the other for yellow pumped phosphor to create green and red) and hit the DMD or Lcos chips with a purer / cleaner white instead. (instead of it being broadspectrum).

It's a very exciting and innovative project and I wish you all the best. 6P should reduce speckle and metamerism (eg :is the dress blue or is it gold? debate)

But those micromirror patents that the Picopro / Sony use are not likely to get licensed that cheaply, certainly not enough to undercut their own products, and these projectors have some fundamental issues like the fact that laser regulations are there for a reason, to protect people going being blinded.

That's why you see 5mw lasers in these pocket projectors, otherwise Sony would get sued to smithereens the second some kid blinded himself by staring into it. The regulations exist for a reason, to protect people from accidental exposure. Laser-illuminated projectors have their light spread out and de-speckled and don't directly project towards the user. In commercial cinemas they have to guarantee that the light cannot cross someone's face as they sit down in their seats, so they get a pass for that reason. The home market is something else entirely. There is a consortium out there trying to get more sane laser regulations implemented but the FCC are conservative bunch, as they should be (because people's safety matters more than short-term corporate profits. Blindness is possibly permanent and not a fun thing to have, one would imagine). Lawsuits and damages could be in the millions. Financial backers would be aware of this. One of the first things a lawyer would ask is : "what's the chance of someone damaging their vision from this?". You could say zero but they would likely need independently verified scientific proof, to limit liability exposure.
Last edited by RLBURNSIDE on 01 Jan 2016, 17:52, edited 1 time in total.

spacediver
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Re: Laser projectors general? [zero lag & zero blur!!!]

Post by spacediver » 01 Jan 2016, 16:47

this thread is win :)

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