Potentially low MPRT on many 4K and 8K Samsung QLED TVs (lots of RTINGS BFI Test image comparisons)

[lextra2]

I'm interested in the QN90D and found this thread on Google. Would it be a good choice for retro games such as a docked Analogue Pocket or a mister fpga connected to it?

Personally, I don't like the flickering at 60Hz. So it depends on if these devices support 120Hz or if you mind the 60Hz flicker.

Would the 120hz bfi introduce too much input lag? I'm very new to a lot of this so please excuse if I'm asking something obvious.

BFI shouldn't add any additional latency.
Here is the measured input lag from RTINGS

[seanmcbay]

They unfortunately can’t but I can get used to the 60hz flicker possibly.

[JimProfit]

Yes, enabling BFI, even in the very worst case, should add less lag than the "4K @ 60hz with interpolation" mode for sure.

Which I believe is the "Game Motion Plus" frame generation setting, within Game Mode.
Which would in turn explain why "outside Game Mode" settings has dramatically higher latency.

Having access to a low-lag interpolation mode is truly a godsend when you don't want to compromise HDR peak brightness, I must say.

[JimProfit]

Update: RTINGS review for the QN90F just dropped.
BFI test picture looks absolutely amazing and is compatible with both 60hz and 120hz and a clear improvement over the QN90D test picture, but sadly it appears quite dim and the screen features a matte coating which doesn't seem to do anything good for black levels/contrast. Base brightness is comparable between both models, no generational improvement in that area.
BFI test picture of both included for comparison.

Perhaps removing the matte coating would improve things slightly, but in a world where HDR gaming is getting increasingly more important, having a BFI mode that preserves a lot of brightness plainly seems like a better choice for me, even if it's ~2ms MPRT rather than ~1...
Seems we just can't have a TV that does everything right.

[Chief Blur Buster]

BTW, for those who is unaware, RTINGS test is also on TestUFO too (RTINGs official), https://www.testufo.com/rtings ...

For accurate tests, make sure the zoom ratio says 100%. (You can still use 200% DPI in OS/browser and 50% DPI in browser/OS, it will cancel out)

[JimProfit]

I've ordered a 65" QN90D, as I got a nice discount and I truly believe it is the better compromise compared to the QN90F, as far as low-MPRT TVs are concerned.

It will take a while before I can do any testing, with my own eyes as I don't have a pursuit camera.

Having a look at the UFO RTINGS test only emphasize how crazy my PG27VQ performs (2018 TN panel with ULMB).
It remains razor sharp at 120hz and even the hacked 60hz mode, I don't know how they do it while retaining a lot of brightness. The strobe crosstalk is also minimal, just a few centimeters at the bottom of the screen. And I can't even really notice ghosting!

Buuuut the contrast and matte coating are so crap, and while still very bright with ULMB, it is not HDR compatible.
I can't wait to just use it for 3D Vision but on the other hand I simply don't know when I'll see a backlight strobing mode that performs like that.

[JimProfit]

Hey guys I just wanted to give a quick update:

In a highly disappointing turn of event, after not being able to turn on 120 BFI, I have learned from RTINGS that they have experienced the same thing and will be updating their review accordingly.

I don't know if it was a mistake all along, or if the TV initially had 120hz BFI and then got nerfed in a subsequent firmware update.
Some Samsung models, typically on the high-end, were initially reported to only support 60hz BFI (QN95D, QN900C and QN900D), but many others on RTINGS were said to support 120hz as well, which determined my choice. I asked them to check out the supposed 120hz BFI models in their list and clarify the situation.

Now, I will probably keep the TV. 60hz BFI is still overall clearer than Motion Pro High on the LG GX OLED, not to mention a lot brighter, so what better choice is there for motion clarity on a large panel, I ask? But I probably won't give it a space in my main office or the adjacent bedroom now.
But if it does turn out that Samsung sabotages its own TVs and there's no workaround, it would shatter my trust in this brand for sure.

Edit: RTINGS also confirmed that the 2025 model QN90F supports 60hz BFI only.
Perhaps it was simply a mistake on their part all along and that all Sammys were 60hz only.
Since they probably don't have 2023 models or older to re-test, it's unlikely that they'll update their reviews on these, which leaves place for some doubt.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Since they probably don't have 2023 models or older to re-test, it's unlikely that they'll update their reviews on these, which leaves place for some doubt.

You should ask anyway.

They keep a surprising number of older models, as they have a giant warehouse style office in Montreal, Canada. I've visited them before in person, from Toronto. As a rule of thumb, they try to keep older models -- for the ability to do re-tests as they already know firmware upgrades can really screw about review ratings.

Now, removing 120Hz BFI does have LOT of precedent. For example, the older vs newer LG OLEDs lost 120Hz BFI, for example.

Also, RTINGs test is also on TestUFO, www.testufo.com/rtings if you need to verify what you see on RTINGs with what you see with your eyeballs -- at the exact same settings -- with their motion blur pictures. (Make sure you warm up the screen for 30 minutes -- cold LCDs are slower and more crosstalky)

[JimProfit]

Yes, I have asked specifically about the QN90F and QN90C (in the faint hope that snatching a 2023 model would get me low-MPRT 120hz BFI).
The QN90F was updated to 60hz BFI only, but the reason I'm not sure they'd even bother checking the QN90C is because another commenter asked the team if they'd update the test it to the latest protocol and RTINGS flat out said no (no time to spare for that).

So, to sum it up, we already knew that the 8K QN900C, QN900D, and lastly the QN900F, as well as the higher-end 4K models QN95B/C/D were listed as 60hz-BFI-only, from the beginning.
We know the QN90D and QN90F were listed as 120hz BFI compatible and were updated to 60hz only upon me mentioning my problem, prompting them to re-test those two models.
That leaves the 120hz BFI status unknown on the following older models, which may never be re-tested by them: 8K QN900A/B + QN800A, and 4K QN90A/B/C as well as various low and mid range QN85 and QN80 models from years prior.

The phrasing used by the RTINGs rep was not perfectly clear on whether it was simply a mistake on their part (in which case we could reasonably assume that none of them strobed at 120hz to begin with) or if it is Samsung that intentionally nerfed their own products via firmware update for no reason.
Of course we know that any manufacturer can take a backward step and discontinue something good like LG did with rolling-scan BFI.
What I would never expect LG to do however, is to remove the option from my 2020/2021 models via firmware update.

Right now I'm thinking of putting the QN90D in the GX"s old spot and use it for 60fps-or-under games that need motion clarity above anything else.
I lose the GX's perfect blacks and absence of crosstalk, but I get higher overall motion clarity and a much better brightness level (again perhaps suitable for HDR400, which no other Samsung seem to be able to do).
And I can also do non-strobed HDR up to 2000nits at 144hz (including low-lag interpolation) when peak brightness is more important, until I pull the trigger on a newer OLED model that'll do that task a lot better.

And if my games can reach 100/120fps, I think I will stay mostly on the G1 for now (same strobing modes' performance as the GX for 100/120hz, and a bit brighter across the board). Even though 120hz BFI on the G1/GX is technically blurrier than 60hz backlight strobing on the QN90D.
But at least I get perfect contrast, perfect pixel response time, no crosstalk, slightly less lag,..

Both TVs are arranged in adjacent rooms but connected to the same PC, and with a high performance strobing monitor on the side (ULMB at 120/144/240/360hz, sub-1ms MPRT capable), the idea is to always have the best of both worlds.
But gee, even doing my homework as best as I can, I sure am not immune to disappointment.

[JimProfit]

Here's a new post by a RTINGS rep on the QN90D review:

"We verified with older reviews and a an older qn90d we had on hand, it seems that all native 120hz panels from the “C” series and older had BFI at 120hz it is difficult to pin point exactly if an update changed this or which update caused this, sorry for any confusion this may have caused we are constantly looking to see what firmware updates change on units unfortunately not all companies mention what the updates address"

My god, f*** Samsung for breaking features on their own TVs.