Frame times dont match with frame rate, causing stuttering

[jorimt]

I've searched on google about frame time spikes being something normal and I havent found results, and its not that I'm doubting what you are saying, but I want to learn more. Is there any website you would recommend me to understand frame time spikes that dont match frame rate, why they happen, etc?

At this point, I'm guessing (but could be wrong that) this is your first "real" high-end gaming PC experience, and all of this is relatively new to you, which is why you're so hyper-focused on this aspect; you probably assume an expensive, cutting-edge gaming PC = perfection, at least in direct to relation to current-gen consoles (which also experience frametime spikes; sometimes worse than on high-end PCs no less, AND with lower framerates/visual fidelity in many cases), so you're wondering why in the heck there are still caveats. Understandable.

But while high-end PCs are the best gaming platform from a raw performance aspect, flawless they ain't. And much like, say, an "amazing" 4k display, they're ultimately only as good as the source content allows them to be, and game performance quality can vary heavily. That, and frametime performance (which average framerates never fully reflect, mind you) in all but the oldest, least demanding titles is an unavoidable, variant mess.

So, I hate to sound like a broken record, but my first post to you already contained a sum-up from my article about what frametime spikes are and why they're caused, and most of my follow-up posts have contained even further information, but let's try again...

Frametime spikes are caused by one or more frames that each take longer to render than a given refresh rate's single scanout (frame delivery) cycle; a.k.a one or more frames with a frametime (render time) higher than, say, 6.9ms (the worth of a single rendered frame at 144Hz) on a 144Hz display, for instance.

This happens because certain scenes periodically require (and, by definition, temporarily, thus our usage of the term "spike" here) more calculations (take a longer time) for certain frame(s) to render than others and/or the game has to access the SSD or HDD for shaders, textures, and/or various assets, and both SSDs/HDDs usually have much slower transfer rates than system DRAM or GPU VRAM (usually both of which can't/won't always contain everything the game needs to access 100% of the time)...

Thus, the longer the game has to wait to retrieve/load in these assets, the longer the frame takes to render, and the longer the frame takes to render, the longer the system has to continue repeating the previous frame until the next frame is finished rendering and ready to be delivered, which results in the stutter known as frametime spikes.

Other than the game, anything that is accessing or "crunching" information (non-game background process, etc) while you're playing a game can worsen or, in extreme cases, even cause frametime spikes.

Usually it's (unavoidably) the game, sometimes it's a non-game process, but from your OP, it looks like you 99% ruled the latter out in your specific case.

If you'd still prefer a "second opinion" on this, so to speak, I'd need to know more specifically what you're still not clear on as to better point you in the right direction, because most other sources I've personally read on frametime spikes mostly explain what one is ("hey guys, it's 'stutter,' 'stutter' bad"), not why it is, unfortunately, but I'll try my best to dig up another relevant source if you'd like.

[Chief Blur Buster]

I haven't changed the motherboard, and maybe he is right that this is normal is just that I dont see these frame time spikes matching with anything else, and they happen relatively often, and I watch forntite or rocket league streamers and they dont usually complain of stutter (or these pauses i experience)

This.

If anything might have a longshot at fixing this..... Try a different motherboard.

It's only a 1% chance at fixing this, but it happens occasionally that a motherboard swap suddenly improved things (even if only partially, like being ~50% better. Games will still be the limiting factor.).

You've done an admirable effort trying to troubleshoot the problem, which means you're probably willing to expend the effort on a new motherboard.

CAVEAT: I must note, it probably won't work, but the odds is that it will work -- because it's not a 0% chance -- it happened before.
As you know, Jorim is likely going to be right too here, but I'm simply offering a slim sliver of hope. And the motherboard (if it works) will only partially fix the problem (if it works), the game will always be the final limiting factor. Because I've seen motherboard swaps improve weird frametime problems -- occasionally.

[ne0x]

Hi @OP

Are you still experiencing these issues?

I might have some things you can try.

[alexander1986]

Hi @OP

Are you still experiencing these issues?

I might have some things you can try.

im not OP but interested in the things you were going to suggest anyway, if possible

[ne0x]

Hi @OP

Are you still experiencing these issues?

I might have some things you can try.

im not OP but interested in the things you were going to suggest anyway, if possible

Not sure if im allowed to post links but here we go

Disclaimer: make a backup / restore point of your windows --> if anything goes wrong dont blame me. Also, read up on the tweaks i am suggesting here BEFORE doing any.

In worst case scenario, you will end up re-installing windows (which can never hurt if you ask me )

I would recommend doing a fresh install of windows first before doing any tweaks, just because it is a clean baseline however > you can still do these and ghet some performance gain and hopefully get rid of the stutters.

Step one: DL and set up a task to clear standby memory in windows
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comm ... _creators/

Still stutters?

KB4482887 for Windows 10 1809 causes game performance issues --> follow steps to remove it (if you have it < MS did do a hotfix for this later)
https://www.ghacks.net/2019/03/07/kb448 ... ce-issues/

Try MSI mode for your PCI components (read post to understand what it is, at the end of the post there are tools you can use to set it up)

Read and set MSI:
https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/windo ... ts.378044/

Still stutters?

Turn off most unnecessary windows10 services --> info http://www.blackviper.com/service-confi ... gurations/

Script:
https://github.com/madbomb122/BlackViperScript

Maybe try different drivers?
I myself found that modded quadro drivers give me 10-30 fps over the regular Geforce drivers.
There are plenty around if you google them, for me 416.30 seem to give good performance gains. you will need to install physX separately and also gforce Experience.

before you do, dont forget to uninstall the old drivers first

You dont actually need to sign the drivers manually > just unpack to any location and then replace the modded .inf in the driver folder

https://forums.guru3d.com/threads/quadr ... 64.423443/
us.download.nvidia.com/Windows/9.19.021 ... ftware.exe

Good luck with the stutters. There are some other things to do still, see how this goes

[GFresha]

OP I also have frametime stutters in Fortnite and its a normal thing for that game!

The devs know about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompet ... s_anybody/

Here is my graph if it makes you feel better: https://imgur.com/PjFIMGU

I found that gsync on + vsync on + 141 fps cap (or whatever your monitor's refresh rate is) actually made frametimes not that noticeable.

Also when I test Apex Legends (2 months ago last time I tested it might be different with new update) but my frametime was butter smooth so I concluded that the issue is on Fortnite.

Also the new season 8 is really bad for performance game looks jittery/slow and unsmooth along with microstutters and frametime spikes, its a real mess and lots of people complaining about it.


Recent reddit post about how the game feels jittery: https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompet ... _you_guys/


I don't know how far you got into troubleshooting this but I went as far as ditching my 4790k along with my ddr3 build memory/mobo combo and upgraded to 8700k and ddr4 build. My frametimes were 37MS+ on the DDR3 build and dropped to the 20s now on DDR4 but every little while I still get a 33 MS stutter but that's the highest. Faster memory or maybe faster cpu helped me mediate the situation but this is normal for the game, you can never eliminate frametimes OP I don't think a million dollar PC can help frametime 100% elimination but it could definitely lower them so much that you barely notice them. I might be using idiot logic here so correct me guys but I am under the impression that frametime = never will be eliminated but can be lowered with a better system.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Not sure if im allowed to post links but here we go

Links like those are certainly allowed (if you have enough posts to be allowed to post links)

[ne0x]

OP I also have frametime stutters in Fortnite and its a normal thing for that game!

The devs know about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompet ... s_anybody/

Here is my graph if it makes you feel better: https://imgur.com/PjFIMGU

I found that gsync on + vsync on + 141 fps cap (or whatever your monitor's refresh rate is) actually made frametimes not that noticeable.

Also when I test Apex Legends (2 months ago last time I tested it might be different with new update) but my frametime was butter smooth so I concluded that the issue is on Fortnite.

Also the new season 8 is really bad for performance game looks jittery/slow and unsmooth along with microstutters and frametime spikes, its a real mess and lots of people complaining about it.


Recent reddit post about how the game feels jittery: https://www.reddit.com/r/FortniteCompet ... _you_guys/


I don't know how far you got into troubleshooting this but I went as far as ditching my 4790k along with my ddr3 build memory/mobo combo and upgraded to 8700k and ddr4 build. My frametimes were 37MS+ on the DDR3 build and dropped to the 20s now on DDR4 but every little while I still get a 33 MS stutter but that's the highest. Faster memory or maybe faster cpu helped me mediate the situation but this is normal for the game, you can never eliminate frametimes OP I don't think a million dollar PC can help frametime 100% elimination but it could definitely lower them so much that you barely notice them. I might be using idiot logic here so correct me guys but I am under the impression that frametime = never will be eliminated but can be lowered with a better system.

STill, there are plenty things one can do to minimize it. finding optimal drivers and tweaking the system here and there. If i leave my windows on 'default' and play pubg i also get micro stutters, as for now its so minimal i dont even notice it anymore.

[Martinengo]

Unfortunately Ive had to travel and I didnt expect me to take this much. I havent been able to try anything. I might have expected too much when I built my pc, but those frame time spikes are so noticeable, and it drives me crazy.
Im wondering if overclocking ram and/or cpu (or both), would decrease the frame time spike impact.

In other forums where Ive mentioned this, people usually mention they dont have these problems, and they have buttery smooth gameplay. Some have mentioned using a power conditioner helps, others mention 1607 windows version was the solution, others the intelligent standby list cleaner (which doesnt work for me), I wish I could go to store and try high gaming pcs, or to a friend with a high game pc (I dont have one like that), and check if everything is the same. Sometimes I even feel like the frametime spikes are worse than other times, like is not consistent.

I know you mention this is normal and I guess at one point I will have to accept it. I cant seem to find benchmarks where frame times occur in the same parts of gameplays that happen to me (yeah, I could find frame time benchmarks with spikes, but Im not sure if that happened after a loading screen, animation, picking it up items like in the witcher 3 which I guess causes small frametime spikes, because thats consistent for me for example)

By the way, could something like double buffering or triple buffering help with this issue?

[jorimt]

Im wondering if overclocking ram and/or cpu (or both), would decrease the frame time spike impact.

I'm not a RAM expert, but unless it's faulty, or you don't have the proper XMP profile enabled in the bios (underclocked), unlikely. As for your CPU, it is true that the CPU is primarily responsible for minimum framerate levels (the range where frametime spikes occur), and OCing can help, but your 9700k isn't some lower tier CPU, so it probably isn't going to have an issue in this area, unless again, it's underclocking or flat out faulty (and with the <30ms frametime spikes you report, it doesn't seem to be).

In other forums where Ive mentioned this, people usually mention they dont have these problems, and they have buttery smooth gameplay.

Tolerances from user to user differs; some will notice and/or be sensitive to certain frametime spike thresholds much more than others (some players can barely detect <30ms frametime spikes, especially at lower frame/refresh rates, while to others, they are dead obvious).

Some have mentioned using a power conditioner helps

Unless you have very unstable power in your home, unlikely. That said, power conditioners have other benefits.

Sometimes I even feel like the frametime spikes are worse than other times, like is not consistent.

That's exactly how it's suppose to be; you're not playing a static video over and over again, the game is rendered/simulated in real-time every session, thus every session is unique, frametime spikes and all. That's why benchmark testers count in margin of error from test to test.

I cant seem to find benchmarks where frame times occur in the same parts of gameplays that happen to me (yeah, I could find frame time benchmarks with spikes, but Im not sure if that happened after a loading screen, animation, picking it up items like in the witcher 3 which I guess causes small frametime spikes, because thats consistent for me for example)

By the way, could something like double buffering or triple buffering help with this issue?

Yes, frustrating, but since each session is a little different, even on the same PC, the only way that would help you is for frametime spikes that occur well into or over the 50ms range, which the graphs you shared did not reflect, because again, any occasional frametime spike in the 30ms or under range is usually just the game (though, of course, there can be exceptions).

You've already troubleshooted quite a bit, but things off the top of my head that can affect frametime spikes are (at least where it seems to apply to you; so not counting all out hardware failure, too little RAM/VRAM/pagefile overusage, SLI issues, etc):

- Overclock/underclock issues with CPU/GPU/RAM
- CPU hyper-threading (minimum framerates can increase with it disabled on certain setups, which can reduce spikes in certain games sometimes)
- Background processes (including taskbar programs and running "Services")
- Specific Windows-level updates (rare)
- Windows-level settings (Game DVR, etc)
- In-game overlays (Steam, Shadowplay, etc)
- Slow or fragmented storage drives (shouldn't apply to your SSD, but you could see if it needs to be "trimmed" with the Windows defrag tool)
- Per-game input device conflicts (can cause spikes when both controller and keyboard/mouse are plugged in, etc)
- Nvidia Shader Cache being disabled (though even with it enabled, it only holds so much per session, so when it purges the cache, it can make frametime spike occurrence seem even more random)
- Certain Device Manager entries (I'm currently playing Sekiro, and I seemed to have gotten rid of the occassional 1-2 second frametime spikes I was getting by disabling "Microsoft Device Association Root Enumerator" under "Software Devices." This may do nothing for other games, and I'm still not sure what it's doing specifically, so grain of salt. Probably an input device issue for this specific game only)
- Background network activity or poor game netcode
- Sound or sound card issues (check to see if your primary sound device has an "Enable audio enhancements" checkbox under the "Advanced" tab and uncheck it; can increase CPU usage in some instances)

My only advice to you at this point, short of replacing the motherboard (as the Chief suggested), is to make sure your DRAM has the correct XMP profile applied at the bios level, to disable/enable hyper-threading via the bios (optional: try both if you'd like), to disable all background programs possible, set Windows power profile to "High Performance" (to disable any CPU down-clocking or core-parking), set "NVCP Power Management mode to "Prefer maximum performance," disable Game DVR (if you haven't already), set Afterburner to default 1000ms monitoring ping (with the "Enable low level hardware" option under "General" set to "user mode"), unplug all secondary input devices (controllers, etc), temporarily disable your ethernet or wifi adapter, disable your sound device, disable both G-SYNC and V-SYNC, uncap your FPS, and run through a few sessions of your problem offline games.

Repeat this for your online games, but obviously re-enable the internet.

If you're still getting the occasional <30ms frametime spike, you're 99.9% in the clear, it's normal. If not, and frametime spikes have been notably reduced, then you'll know one of the above things contributed to it. You'll then just have to narrow it down from there.

Also, no, standalone double buffer and triple buffer won't help/reduce frametime spikes (if anything, the opposite). Instead, G-SYNC + V-SYNC "Off" or standalone V-SYNC OFF is your best bet if you want the quickest possible recovery from frametime spikes.