Blur Busters Forums

Great thread, @jorimt. I hope that more testing regarding NULL is done in the near future, so we can find out for sure if it can really be used as a substitute for the -3 FPS cap.

Saraneth wrote:On my 75Hz G-sync compatible monitor with G-sync and V-sync plus Ultra low latency + uncapped fps I still sit at 75fps on Modern Warfare. Doesn't seem to be lowering it for me. Guess I still need to lower the fps to 72/73 manually. Or is the reduced V-sync latency enough?

NULL isn't supported by MW because that's exclusively a DX12 title. Of note, however, is that the in-game FPS limiter doesn't seem to work, either. My display refresh rate is 66Hz (as indicated in-game), and even after manually setting the FPS cap to 63, the game still runs at 66 FPS.

jorimt, have you noticed that behavior?

Battle(non)sense tweeted that he already tested NULL with GSync with these new drivers so hopefuly we get some info soon

https://twitter.com/BattleNonSense/stat ... 9059084289

EeK wrote:

Saraneth wrote:On my 75Hz G-sync compatible monitor with G-sync and V-sync plus Ultra low latency + uncapped fps I still sit at 75fps on Modern Warfare. Doesn't seem to be lowering it for me. Guess I still need to lower the fps to 72/73 manually. Or is the reduced V-sync latency enough?

NULL isn't supported by MW because that's exclusively a DX12 title. Of note, however, is that the in-game FPS limiter doesn't seem to work, either. My display refresh rate is 66Hz (as indicated in-game), and even after manually setting the FPS cap to 63, the game still runs at 66 FPS.

jorimt, have you noticed that behavior?

I honestly wasn't aware MW was DX12 only, then again, I only played a few rounds in the open beta (I haven't bought it). But yes, that would indeed explain why it wasn't working for him, as DX12/Vulkan don't currently support external manipulation of the pre-rendered frames queue.

As for the in-game FPS limiter, for what it's worth, it was working for me at 141 FPS in the open beta, but I have heard it not working for some in MW, and even BO4. Not sure why that's the case since I haven't been able to replicate in either games. Though I will say it's not the most stable limiter, even when it is working.

disq wrote:Battle(non)sense tweeted that he already tested NULL with GSync with these new drivers so hopefuly we get some info soon

https://twitter.com/BattleNonSense/stat ... 9059084289

Good to know, will be interesting to hear his explanations/results. Though, already judging from a couple of his twitter replies, it sounds like, at the very least, NULL still isn't a direct substitute for an FPS limiter.

Whatever it's doing when it's "auto-capping," is probably more of a side-effect of it's functionality (much like what I've seen in the past with G-SYNC + Fast Sync or standalone Fast Sync), than an explicitly intended FPS limit, but we'll see what he has to say on it soon.

jorimt wrote:I honestly wasn't aware MW was DX12 only, then again, I only played a few rounds in the open beta (I haven't bought it). But yes, that would indeed explain why it wasn't working for him, as DX12/Vulkan don't currently support external manipulation of the pre-rendered frames queue.

Yeah, it's the first and (at least for now) only DX12 game that has an exclusive fullscreen mode more in line with the exclusive fullscreen modes of yore, meaning that you can select resolution and refresh rates independently from those in the desktop.

However, you're forced to enable HDR in Windows for the toggle to appear in-game, so that's still a DX12 "fake" fullscreen limitation, like in Shadow of the Tomb Raider.

jorimt wrote:As for the in-game FPS limiter, for what it's worth, it was working for me at 141 FPS in the open beta, but I have heard it not working for some in MW, and even BO4. Not sure why that's the case since I haven't been able to replicate in either games. Though I will say it's not the most stable limiter, even when it is working.

Thanks for letting me know. It's definitely not working for me in the full version. I'll see if it works with RTSS and report back.

EeK wrote:Yeah, it's the first and (at least for now) only DX12 game that has an exclusive fullscreen mode more in line with the exclusive fullscreen modes of yore, meaning that you can select resolution and refresh rates independently from those in the desktop.

However, you're forced to enable HDR in Windows for the toggle to appear in-game, so that's still a DX12 "fake" fullscreen limitation, like in Shadow of the Tomb Raider.

The majority of games in Windows 10 (be they DX9, 11, or 12) now default to the OS's hybrid borderless/exclusive fullscreen mode, unless you disable fullscreen optimizations per exe (though, I think DX12 will use it either way; haven't tested that myself).

This allows quicker alt+tabs and the appearance of secondary overlays (volume bar, game bar, etc) by, as far as I understand it, allowing the DWM to engage temporarily for those elements, while still retaining exclusive fullscreen functionality when the game window is focused by disengaging DWM composition again.

As for Window's HDR configuration, from what I know, that's a mess regardless of AMD, Nvidia, or the game in question, and is primarily on Microsoft to address (if they ever will; that, along with multi-monitor configurations using mixed-refresh rate monitors).

Some quick findings regarding NULL and G-Sync in The Outer Worlds (a DX11 game).

With NULL set to Ultra, but without a frame cap (framerate set to "Unlimited" in-game and no cap in RTSS), the FPS is capped at 1 frame below the display's maximum refresh rate, and gameplay is mostly a smooth experience (flat line in RTSS's frametime graph).

Much, much better than using the game's own framerate limiter, and even slightly better than setting RTSS to -3, related to the refresh rate. That's my limited experience with NULL set to Ultra, so far (it was globally set to "On", before).

jorimt wrote:The majority of games in Windows 10 (be they DX9, 11, or 12) now default to the OS's hybrid borderless/exclusive fullscreen mode, unless you disable fullscreen optimizations per exe (though, I think DX12 will use it either way; haven't tested that myself).

This allows quicker alt+tabs and the appearance of secondary overlays (volume bar, game bar, etc) by, as far as I understand it, allowing the DWM to engage temporarily for those elements, while still retaining exclusive fullscreen functionality when the game window is focused by disengaging DWM composition again.

As for Window's HDR configuration, from what I know, that's a mess regardless of AMD, Nvidia, or the game in question, and is primarily on Microsoft to address (if they ever will; that, along with multi-monitor configurations using mixed-refresh rate monitors).

Forgot to mention that I disable fullscreen optimizations for all possible games - the only exceptions being those downloaded from the Microsoft Store, due to the nature of UWP. Even the new ones, that are supposed to be Win32, still have locked executables hiding in encrypted folders. I'd love to find out a way of disabling fullscreen optimizations even for those, but have yet to succeed.

For DX12 titles, the "fake" exclusive fullscreen mode behavior is the same, aside from MW, which works in a slightly different way. Still, the HDR limitation is related to the fact that the game still isn't truly running in exclusive fullscreen mode, as the games that do can have HDR enabled regardless of the desktop settings.

HDR used to be much worse, but 1903 mostly fixed the biggest issues. Before that, not only the implementation was flawed (incorrect colors and levels), but enabling HDR would also mess up audio (Atmos, in particular). Playing RE2 in both HDR and with Atmos was an exercise in patience like no other.

EeK wrote:gameplay is mostly a smooth experience (flat line in RTSS's frametime graph).

Just a quick note, frametime variances when using an in-game limiter are not always a negative over a "flatter" frametime graph; the very reason good in-game limiters have less input lag is that they can utilize some of those lower frametimes to deliver frames more quickly.

EeK wrote:I'd love to find out a way of disabling fullscreen optimizations even for those, but have yet to succeed.

Try this:
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/384 ... -10-a.html

I use it to disable FSO for some UWP games myself.

EeK wrote:HDR used to be much worse, but 1903 mostly fixed the biggest issues.

Good to hear it has improved. Since I currently only use my LG C7 for movies/TV (I have a dedicated G-SYNC monitor for gaming), I've only read/heard about its implementation.

jorimt wrote:Just a quick note, frametime variances when using an in-game limiter are not always a negative over a "flatter" frametime graph; the very reason good in-game limiters have less input lag is that they can utilize some of those lower frametimes to deliver frames more quickly.

Right, you mentioned that in the other thread. The thing is, with NULL, I'm not using any FPS limiter - either in-game or external -, and I'm still getting that flat line and experiencing noticeably smoother performance. Have you tried NULL with that game?

jorimt wrote:Try this:
https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/384 ... -10-a.html

I use it to disable FSO for some UWP games myself.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'd actually done that before, but people scared me into never messing with the ownership of the WindowsApps folder ever again. According to them, that can cause series issues with not only games, but with Windows itself, requiring a complete clean reinstall in the most extreme cases.

Personally, I can tell that after taking ownership of WindowsApps and reverting it to TrustedInstaller, most of my saves in Gears 5 completely vanished. Not sure exactly what caused them to disappear, but it may be related to the fact that I started the game after taking ownership of WindowsApps, and, by the time I returned to it, I'd already reverted ownership to TrustedInstaller. I also used icacls to reset all permissions for that folder. Still, I definitely did not mess with the local save files.

jorimt wrote:Good to hear it has improved. Since I currently only use my LG C7 for movies/TV (I have a dedicated G-SYNC monitor for gaming), I've only read/heard about its implementation.

Yeah, it has improved considerably since 1903. HDR actually worked fine for most games between 1803 and 1809 (in which the latter broke audio), and only remained completely unusable between 1709 (when it was introduced) and 1803.

Some titles, like Anthem, didn't work at all with HDR at launch, but I hear that EA fixed it after the first week of Origin (early) Access. By that time, however, I'd already given up on the game entirely.

You should hook up the C7 to your PC to give it a try! Sea of Thieves is another title that didn't have HDR at launch (only on console), but I've read that the feature has since been added to the PC version. If it looks half as good as on the Xbox, it's already worth trying.

EeK wrote:Right, you mentioned that in the other thread. The thing is, with NULL, I'm not using any FPS limiter - either in-game or external -, and I'm still getting that flat line and experiencing noticeably smoother performance. Have you tried NULL with that game?

Not with that game, but I have with several others. As I've (repeatedly) stated via previous comments in this thread though, until more testing is done, I can't guarantee what that combo is doing, and I can't currently recommend it over an FPS limiter.

Batle(non)sense is reportedly due to release a test video on it soon.

EeK wrote:Thanks for the suggestion. I'd actually done that before, but people scared me into never messing with the ownership of the WindowsApps folder ever again. According to them, that can cause series issues with not only games, but with Windows itself, requiring a complete clean reinstall in the most extreme cases.

I can't say I've experienced anything close to that after taking control over the WindowsApps folder for game exe access, but, yes, feel free to avoid the method if you're not comfortable with it.

EeK wrote:You should hook up the C7 to your PC to give it a try! Sea of Thieves is another title that didn't have HDR at launch (only on console), but I've read that the feature has since been added to the PC version. If it looks half as good as on the Xbox, it's already worth trying.

Noted

EeK wrote:Some quick findings regarding NULL and G-Sync in The Outer Worlds (a DX11 game).

With NULL set to Ultra, but without a frame cap (framerate set to "Unlimited" in-game and no cap in RTSS), the FPS is capped at 1 frame below the display's maximum refresh rate, and gameplay is mostly a smooth experience (flat line in RTSS's frametime graph).

Much, much better than using the game's own framerate limiter, and even slightly better than setting RTSS to -3, related to the refresh rate. That's my limited experience with NULL set to Ultra, so far (it was globally set to "On", before).

jorimt wrote:The majority of games in Windows 10 (be they DX9, 11, or 12) now default to the OS's hybrid borderless/exclusive fullscreen mode, unless you disable fullscreen optimizations per exe (though, I think DX12 will use it either way; haven't tested that myself).

This allows quicker alt+tabs and the appearance of secondary overlays (volume bar, game bar, etc) by, as far as I understand it, allowing the DWM to engage temporarily for those elements, while still retaining exclusive fullscreen functionality when the game window is focused by disengaging DWM composition again.

As for Window's HDR configuration, from what I know, that's a mess regardless of AMD, Nvidia, or the game in question, and is primarily on Microsoft to address (if they ever will; that, along with multi-monitor configurations using mixed-refresh rate monitors).

Forgot to mention that I disable fullscreen optimizations for all possible games - the only exceptions being those downloaded from the Microsoft Store, due to the nature of UWP. Even the new ones, that are supposed to be Win32, still have locked executables hiding in encrypted folders. I'd love to find out a way of disabling fullscreen optimizations even for those, but have yet to succeed.

For DX12 titles, the "fake" exclusive fullscreen mode behavior is the same, aside from MW, which works in a slightly different way. Still, the HDR limitation is related to the fact that the game still isn't truly running in exclusive fullscreen mode, as the games that do can have HDR enabled regardless of the desktop settings.

HDR used to be much worse, but 1903 mostly fixed the biggest issues. Before that, not only the implementation was flawed (incorrect colors and levels), but enabling HDR would also mess up audio (Atmos, in particular). Playing RE2 in both HDR and with Atmos was an exercise in patience like no other.

awesome to see you here too Eek. I'm patiently awaiting battlenonsense video. It would be great to just setup gsync + vsync + ultra low latency and forget it.

It would be nice to do less dicking around trying to hover under 97 % gpu usage as well as below the refresh rate ceiling to optimize input lag. I'm going to want to have less static elements on my screen now that i'm going to be gaming on the c9 oled.