Blur Busters Forums

In this topic, sometimes controversial, it is important to have more science/analysis, less speculation.

Electricity-related input lag problems, while exists, are rarer than more common lag problems. And causes frequent wasted time trying to troubleshoot wild goose chases and red herrings. To help tame the wild geese flocks, try to keep things assumption free and analytical troubleshooting if you use this thread.

A move is sometimes cheaper than fixing some kinds of electricity problems (severe faults in knob-and-tube wiring of an old rental), while conversely some different electricity problems are simple as unplugging a severely malfunctioning 1950s fridge in the same house, or other mudane electricity-dirtying appliance etc. Please chase easier geese and fish first (more common computer lag problems).

People have spent months or years troubleshooting to no avail (thousands dollars spent to no avail), having lag problems at their DSL provider, or with specific computer hardware, that is never fixed by perfect electricity.

To other readers, If you attempt to troubleshoot electricity & EMI issues, approach analytically and methodically, rather than blindly following the recommendations of only this thread. Unless you’re just spending disposable “peace of mind” money on boxes for other reasons too (like the UPS purpose of saving work during dropouts and blackouts). And not setting expectations, getting pleasantly surprised with cleaner electricity as a bonus that may or may not fix certain kinds of lag problems (Error-correction-induced lags).

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

29 Mar 2020, 12:38

Electricity-related inout-lag problems, while exists, are very rare and causes frequent wasted time trying to troubleshoot wild goose chases and red herrings. To help tame the wild geese flocks, try to keep things assumption free and analytical troubleshooting if you use this thread.

This is what i'm doing. I'm trying to understand the idea behind electricity problems ("dirty electricity") / EMI/RFI issues.
The ideas i have proposed IF what OP is saying is true:

- using "Dirty Electricity Filters" should fix the problem immediately, without the need of fixing the main circuit
- powering off everything in your house, except your own room, should either fix or improve these things
- switching off fuses with the exception of your own room should fix the problem
- disconnecting the offending device / devices (like in your mothers room) should also fix or at least improve everything

And if all the above are true, then you should easily track and measure the changes with these "Greenwave EMI (Dirty Electricity) Meters". These meters are measuring noise levels (mV), so reducing the noise in the wall socket that your PC is connected to, by powering off offending devices / fuses should fix the problem and the metter should be showing lower levels of noise WITHOUT the need of fixing electrical installation / main circuit. Also, if everything above is true, then you should be able to track down offending devices by powering everything off one by one in your house and using the meter to measure noise levels.

So, there also shouldn't been any issues while switching the power off completely in the entire home and:
- playing on a PC using an UPC in batterry mode
- playing on a laptop in battery mode

This particular thing seems quite easy to being track down as a potential culprit. Basically, if there is no electricity in home, there shouldn't be any input lag issues present while playing in battery mode. Also, these input lag problems should be fixable / partially fixable by finding offending devices and switching them off, without the need of fixing the main circuit. Same with these pricey "Dirty Electricity Filters" as they supposedly seem to fix EMI/RFI issues completely on the spot when connected to the wall socket.

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

29 Mar 2020, 12:38

Unless you’re just spending disposable “peace of mind” money on boxes for other reasons too (like the UPS purpose of saving work during dropouts and blackouts). And not setting expectations, getting pleasantly surprised with cleaner electricity as a bonus that may or may not fix certain kinds of lag problems (Error-correction-induced lags).

That is exactly my angle here. I need to buy an UPS and surge protector / power strip for my server, so i might as well try all of that and see if there is any difference / improvements on my gaming PC. I need to spend the money anyway, so if i happen to fix some potential dirty electricity issues (even not huge ones and i don't think i have any in the first place) at the same time, then i'm more than happy to test these things out, even for marginal improvement or just to have "peace of mind" in this situation.

nuggify wrote: ↑

29 Mar 2020, 11:03

He is right the mouse is inconsistent and tracks terribly in desktop and even BIOS for me across all my PCs. Obviously it is not net related, and if it is possible for me to have this issue caused by high impedance grounding its possible others do as well.

Again, this thing (mouse lag on desktop) was not mentioned here, so i assumed input lag like problems when playing games online. Even the OP have said "Im playing now without any issue , even my eyes got pain for gaming straight for 12hours. I enjoy every second i play and i love it" so i assumed the problem was strictly related to online gaming. And i again agree, if there are any other issues like mouse inconsistency on desktop, then the problem might be power related or like in your case caused by bad grounding due to high impedance.

it is also not "general and well known issue that many people are experiencing with various "input lag" problems in FPS games while playing online."
it is quite rare and only certain games are impacted, and also due to synchronization of fps and network updates (like hots)

What isn't ? Are you still talking about possible power/emi related problems or input lag like problems / hit registration issues / laggy feeling (among other things) that are present while playing in online FPS games ? If the latter, then this problem is not rare and people around the world have been affected by it to different degrees for almost 20 years. And main culprit which causes that to happen are internet performance fluctuations and network congestion issues.

And when it comes to power/emi issues, in the same vein as with network congestion problems, different people should be affected differently by this. It should be scaling up and down, based on the noise and "dirty electricity" created in the particular environment by offending devices / main circuit issues etc. Personally, i do not think that i have any power/emi issues, but i got interested in this thread and the device that was used by OP to measure the noise levels. I also need to buy an UPS and surge protector / power strip for my server anyway, so i might as well try all of that and see if there is any difference / improvements on my gaming PC. And to diagnose a possible problem i need to understand the possible solutions and even half measures. So, for example, if somehow i'm in fact being even slightly affected by power issues (caused by certain devices, dimmer light switches etc.) i would like to fix all these issues, even if the improvement will be marginal or not noticable at all.

mello wrote: ↑

29 Mar 2020, 13:43

And when it comes to power/emi issues, in the same vein as with network congestion problems, different people should be affected differently by this. It should be scaling up and down, based on the noise and "dirty electricity" created in the particular environment by offending devices / main circuit issues etc. Personally, i do not think that i have any power/emi issues, but i got interested in this thread and the device that was used by OP to measure the noise levels. I also need to buy an UPS and surge protector / power strip for my server anyway, so i might as well try all of that and see if there is any difference / improvements on my gaming PC. And to diagnose a possible problem i need to understand the possible solutions and even half measures. So, for example, if somehow i'm in fact being even slightly affected by power issues (caused by certain devices, dimmer light switches etc.) i would like to fix all these issues, even if the improvement will be marginal or not noticable at all.

I'm very interested to hear come commentary from your mind -- you have had excellent posts in the past, and so I'm more interested than usual to hear from you when you buy your equipment.

Have you bought an online UPS yet?

mello wrote: ↑

29 Mar 2020, 13:43

And when it comes to power/emi issues, in the same vein as with network congestion problems, different people should be affected differently by this. It should be scaling up and down, based on the noise and "dirty electricity" created in the particular environment by offending devices / main circuit issues etc. Personally, i do not think that i have any power/emi issues, but i got interested in this thread and the device that was used by OP to measure the noise levels. I also need to buy an UPS and surge protector / power strip for my server anyway, so i might as well try all of that and see if there is any difference / improvements on my gaming PC. And to diagnose a possible problem i need to understand the possible solutions and even half measures. So, for example, if somehow i'm in fact being even slightly affected by power issues (caused by certain devices, dimmer light switches etc.) i would like to fix all these issues, even if the improvement will be marginal or not noticable at all.

People are affected differently (severity) however the symptoms are generally the same: inconsistency, dropped, desync'd mouse/keyboard inputs, degraded sound and display quality, and intermittent network slowdowns and processing of data. I think its important that you identify if you have these problems at all in the first place. For many of us it is easily detectable. If you do not I doubt a UPS or power conditioner will make any performance impact regarding the input issues etc.

That being said there are plenty of rational reasons to have a UPS (whether Online or not). Also it is good practice to make sure your electrical throughout your home is up to code.

Fun fact at my end - I'm also getting sporadic input lag issues on my monitor that started around October of last year - but I've been using a UPS (APC Back-UPS 1500, without software integration) since September. Both my primary monitor and system box are connected to the UPS (but my other monitors aren't).

So without me investigating any further I could say it's possible that my using a UPS actually caused my input lag issues (heh).

TooManyPixels wrote: ↑

08 Apr 2020, 19:15

Fun fact at my end - I'm also getting sporadic input lag issues on my monitor that started around October of last year - but I've been using a UPS (APC Back-UPS 1500, without software integration) since September. Both my primary monitor and system box are connected to the UPS (but my other monitors aren't).

So without me investigating any further I could say it's possible that my using a UPS actually caused my input lag issues (heh).

if you disconnect your primary pc and monitor from the UPS, does the input lag issue disappear completely and stay away during all times of the day then? would be a good way to 100% rule out what is causing the issue in your case, if the problem is not resolved then perhaps a power conditioner together with the UPS would still help you, worth trying at least imo !

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

24 Mar 2020, 21:25

It's just cheaper to spend money on a high-rated power conditioner (with voltage regulation) with true sine-wave AC. The kind that can keep voltage high during brownouts. The kind that isolates power from power. Even a $500 to $1000 power conditioner is cheaper than the money you spend on some professional datacenter-grade electricians (the type Google and Facebook hires) to troubleshoot weird issues that most electricians don't even know how to troubleshoot. Do not skimp on a basic power conditioner. The $100 and $200 units will not always be good enough.

Well I was considering these:
https://www.panamax.com/product/mr4300- ... ent-MR4300

https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/produ ... 500pfclcd/

Do you think either of those is a good option?
Thanks

A battery operated UPS likely isn't a long term solution and unless you buy something super expensive, it probably isn't a valid option unless the device has significant EMI/RFI suppression that somehow helps. Even if you rely on the battery power, a half decent modern gaming PC will only last 1-2 minutes at best on the common cheaper solutions (~$100). Not exactly enough time to test for issues.

EMI-RFI plug/Power conditioner may help, but I firmly believe the the issue has a lot to do with high refresh rate/high bandwidth panels and the connection between the PC and display with supplied currents feeding off electro magnetic fields in your household. Doesn't matter if its 1440p 144hz or 1080p 240hz.

I recently swapped my Dell/Aftermarket cable(s) with a thicker gauge, shorter DP cable that was supplied with an LG monitor. The perceivable lets say "lag" feels more similar to how the PC should feel with a cleaner area of electricity. It probably isn't an exact fix, but it doesn't feel as muddy or limited in terms of motion range at high refresh. I live alone in a single bedroom apartment and have been experiencing issues with modern high bandwidth displays since 2017. I've just kinda accepted that there's an electricity issue going on here as my dads place across town doesn't share this issue, even with the included DP cables of many individually tested monitors.

Prior to the newer panels, I've used a VG248QE exclusively from the 2013 release date..(ZERO issues subjectively coming from actual input laggy 120hz LCDS, but for all I know there could have been an underlying issue) but looking at it, the included cable has two massive ferrite chokes on each end of the dual link DVI cable. I'd assume with both experiences and putting two and two together, Ferrite chokes might help, but I do not know if DP as a connection would benefit exactly from a scientific point of view (or potentially contaminate the signal). All I know is that the thicker and shorter DP cable that I have works a lot better than the included cable that came with my Dell/Alienware displays at my current residence.

This would lead me to believe that the general EMI of a household/building is a more of a problem more than where or how a device is plugged in.

skylit wrote: ↑

15 Apr 2020, 01:49

A battery operated UPS likely isn't a long term solution and unless you buy something super expensive, it probably isn't a valid option unless the device has significant EMI/RFI suppression that somehow helps. Even if you rely on the battery power, a half decent modern gaming PC will only last 1-2 minutes at best on the common cheaper solutions (~$100). Not exactly enough time to test for issues.

EMI-RFI plug/Power conditioner may help, but I firmly believe the the issue has a lot to do with high refresh rate/high bandwidth panels and the connection between the PC and display with supplied currents feeding off electro magnetic fields in your household. Doesn't matter if its 1440p 144hz or 1080p 240hz.

I recently swapped my Dell/Aftermarket cable(s) with a thicker gauge, shorter DP cable that was supplied with an LG monitor. The perceivable lets say "lag" feels more similar to how the PC should feel with a cleaner area of electricity. It probably isn't an exact fix, but it doesn't feel as muddy or limited in terms of motion range at high refresh. I live alone in a single bedroom apartment and have been experiencing issues with modern high bandwidth displays since 2017. I've just kinda accepted that there's an electricity issue going on here as my dads place across town doesn't share this issue, even with the included DP cables of many individually tested monitors.

Prior to the newer panels, I've used a VG248QE exclusively from the 2013 release date..(ZERO issues subjectively coming from actual input laggy 120hz LCDS, but for all I know there could have been an underlying issue) but looking at it, the included cable has two massive ferrite chokes on each end of the dual link DVI cable. I'd assume with both experiences and putting two and two together, Ferrite chokes might help, but I do not know if DP as a connection would benefit exactly from a scientific point of view (or potentially contaminate the signal). All I know is that the thicker and shorter DP cable that I have works a lot better than the included cable that came with my Dell/Alienware displays at my current residence.

This would lead me to believe that the general EMI of a household/building is a more of a problem more than where or how a device is plugged in.

A thicker and shorter DP cable will mean 2 things: It is a worst antenna for the interference (shorter), and it has additional shielding (thicker). That is likely the reason the short cable preforms better. I have toyed a lot around with the idea of this EMI/EMF only really affecting the monitor display like you said however I do not think that is the case. For one this affects the network strength in my home, and it also negatively affects the audio for my PC. This has nothing to do with the monitor so I believe it is just high levels of EMF that are signal blocking/interfering with all of our data signal connections.

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