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anyone who can feel 8ms of input lag wouldn't be using a 125hz mouse anyway

FWIW, There are two very different ways to feel the imperfections of a 125hz mouse. (1) Microstutter, and (2) Input lag.

I am personally more sensitive to (1) than (2) but it is very person and system dependant. Microstutter visibility gets amplified by the motion clarity of strobing (LightBoost) so (1) vs (2) can be biased differently depending on whether or not you have strobing enabled.

Hey there fellow blurbusters!

Man, am I happy to see this topic and explanation, saves me a lot of time! Been trying to make people aware of how mouse polling rates interact with refresh rates and frame rates rates for quite a while, now I can just point them to this site and those handy pictures

I always found the cursor movement slightly juddery back when I still had a CRT at 60Hz on WinXP with my mouse set at 500Hz, especially noticeable following the desktop cursor with my eyes during movement and in games using raw mouse input when panning the full screen view while looking at small details in high contrast scenery. Dragging high contrast windows with small details like text was also a sure way to notice it.

Since that CRT was at the end of its life (turning greener and greener, making high pitched noises), I decided to replace it with the Dell 2209WA (best affordable IPS flat panel at that time). I also replaced the mouse with an expensive 1000Hz model (the Logitech G500 back then, a G9x and Sentinel Advance II after that and multiple G400s' now) and went to Win7 x64 Ultimate.

Despite the Dell 2209WA obviously producing more streaking and blur during movement than the CRT did (which should kinda cover up polling rate/refresh rate roughness) and the mouse being twice as fast as before (1000Hz vs 500Hz), I can still perceive the beat judder phenomenon while moving the mouse. It's far less noticeable than 500Hz on a CRT, but still noticeable nonetheless.

I then decided to put my monitor at 50Hz using CRU (since 1000Hz should obviously play better with 50Hz than it should with 60Hz, which is why SteelSeries advises using a polling rate of 960Hz at 60Hz, but I can't do 960Hz with Logitech mice). While the results are even better, the problem is still not eliminated. Even at 50Hz with the typical LCD blur and using a polling rate of 1000Hz, in certain high contrast scenarios I can still perceive the cursor and 3D view judder very slightly during mouse movement every once in a while. You don't need a lightboost or 120Hz monitor model to be able to see it. At least I don't.

The problem still occurs because the polling rate of the mouse and the refresh rate of the monitor aren't in sync. Going higher and higher in USB and mouse polling rates should eventually overpower the situation, but Instead of going higher and higher (like the 2000Hz suggestion), maybe propose some form of mouse sync, either software or maybe hardware, which synchronises the mouse polling rate with the monitor's refresh rate, just like we can do with frame rates using v-sync.

nVidia came up with G-Sync recently, let's name this invention M-Sync and slap a logo on it Make all gamers buy new mice.

I would like some help with the following issue.

I'm really sensitive to any kind of motion/strobing artifacts and keep getting distracted by the roughness of unsynchronised mouse input, which keeps me from playing a couple of very cool games. In many games the phenomenon isn't a problem, since these titles use a very effecient form of mouse smoothing or interpolation (Bionic Commando, Crysis 2, Doom 3, Prey, Quake 4, Rage, Two Worlds II for example), but other games use a raw form of input which exhibits the same microjudder I also see during cursor movement on the desktop (Mass Effect 2 & 3, Dishonored, BioShock Infinite, Gunslinger).

I nearly always manually cap my frame rate in games to a value ever so slightly lower than my monitor's refresh rate to eliminate most of the mouse lag and jitter introduced with over-rendering while v-sync is being used. For example, I use 59.998 fps at 60Hz which results in a consistent accumulated missed frame every minute or so (skip) along with a little input lag accumulation before the skip, which I find very tolerable. I'm looking for ultimate smoothness and am willing to sacrifice a bit of responsiveness, and while it almost sounds contradicting, capping the framerate slightly lower than the refreshrate produces vastly superior motion smoothness in many titles compared to letting the framerate run wild, even when v-sync is being used.

The issue isn't related to the missed frame, as it also occurs with v-sync disabled and with frame rates being slightly higher than the refresh rate, instead of lower. There's no load stutters, no latency, input with both keyboard and gamepad is smooth, just not with the mouse - not entirely at least (smooth at first glance though, people would be hard pressed to spot it at all).

The problem becomes pretty much completely unnoticeable in low contrast environments, or when the larger portion of the view is dark. Even when I'm trying really hard, I just can't see it. In high contrast environments however, or when the view is mostly occupied by brightness, the issue can become visible, just like on the desktop. It is considerably harder to spot than the difference is between 60fps@60Hz and 120fps@120Hz and most people would probably consider it 'silky smooth', but look closer. Look inbetween the frames.

All other factors are eliminated. What I perceive isn't the typical jitter or microstutter that can sometimes be seen during mouse movement when the frame rate is higher than the refresh rate despite v-sync being used. This is way more subtle than that and the words 'stroby' or 'flickery' sound more appropriate than juddery. I'm not describing the typical Hz flicker either, but it's almost comparable to that - a very, very slightly uneven spread of refresh flickers.

The games that use the raw mouse desktop cursor method often do have a smooth mouse or filter option which can be enabled either via the game settings or configuration files, but enabling this option or tweaking it does not produce the desired results like it does in Rage or Bionic Commando for example. The microjudder either becomes worse (Gunslinger), or only introduces more input delay while not influencing the microjudder at all (most recent Unreal Engine games do this, but old Unreal Engine games like UT2004 offered a whole bunch of smoothing customizations through the *.ini, nowadays it's just either true or false and it doesn't even fix anything).

So it left me wondering: isn't there some kind of tweak or registry mod to enforce some form of global smoothing or interpolation? Just like the method Rage and Doom 3 use, but system wide. It only needs to be very subtle, just enough to eliminate the 1000Hz/60Hz or /50Hz conversion roughness. All games that use the raw method should be fixed that way, as should the desktop cursor. Compared to upping the USB polling rate to 2000Hz or syncing mouse polling with refresh rate, this might be the easiest (yet sloppiest and laggiest) solution.

I saw MarkC released a mouse acceleration registry fix for Windows 7, which makes the 'enhanced pointer precision' mode behave in the same manner as the regular pointer mode does. Maybe it's possible to use those same registry options to do what I want, but I don't know how. I'm hoping to find some knowledgeable people here that can help me with this and know how to either fix these Unreal Engine games individually and make them use proper mouse smoothing, know how to manipulate the windows cursor through the registry or know how to sync my polling rate with my refresh rate.

Any advice or suggestions? Thanks in advance and I apologize for the long post. I'm just kinda glad to find people that are as observant as I am.


Processor: AMD Phenom II x4 3800MHz
RAM: 4GB Kingston HyperX 1333MHz 7-7-7-20
Videocard: AMD Radeon HD6950 2GB (840/1275MHz)
Motherboard: Asus M4A88T-M
Sound: Onboard VIA HD Audio
Operating System: Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit
Display: Dell 2209WA
Input: Logitech G400s mouse (1000Hz), generic keyboard
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 7200 RPM 1TB

Hello CrunchyBiscuit,

Firstly, welcome to Blur Busters!

CrunchyBisuit wrote:For example, I use 59.998 fps at 60Hz which results in a consistent accumulated missed frame every minute or so (skip) along with a little input lag accumulation before the skip, which I find very tolerable.

Very good on you on figuring out the little known varying-input-lag phenomenon when there's a slight mis-sync between framerate and refreshrate.

Now, I must mention that if you use 120Hz or 144Hz, using VSYNC ON has a lot less penalty than it does at 60Hz. Also, the slewing input lag would be half as much amplitude (or less than that). It can get even better; if you combine GSYNC with game-engine framerate capping -- you have the permanent "VSYNC ON" look at all varying framerates, but without the input lag of VSYNC ON, and without the microstutters, or the slewing input lag effect caused by disjoint between framerate and refreshrate (VSYNC ON + slightly-under framerate cap). Also, I notice that software-based mouse smoothing tend to have a lot less lag on 120Hz+ monitors and GSYNC monitors, even when playing at game-engine framerate-capped 60fps.

I agree, there's now a market for 2000Hz mice (for the first daring mouse manufacturer) -- especially as I have since discovered that some USB3 ports have very tiny amounts of jitter (+/- 0.1ms average), and as I've posted a photo earlier in the thread, even 1000Hz has some barely-perceptible microstutter that I can just about barely notice during strobed mode -- that makes it "not quite as smooth as keyboard strafe left/right". During low-persitence operation (CRT or <1ms strobe length), the 1000Hz vs 2000Hz should become visible during 180-degree flicks when tracking eyes, for those of us attuned to low persistence, and also sensitive to microstutters.

Are you considering buying a "Better Than 60Hz" monitor at any point? Considering that certain models (e.g. BENQ Z-Series 60Hz strobing, or GSYNC monitors) provide benefits even for 60fps games?

Easiest way to get systemwide 1000Hz smoothing is via the mouse hardware itself. Some 1000Hz mouse are much smoother than others, having some built-in mouse filtering (that can be enabled/disabled). Not all competitive gamers like it, as it can add possibly an extra millisecond of input lag, but for the stutter-haters at Blur Busters, it can make a significant difference.

And that's why I usually play at 125Hz. 1000Hz/125Hz = 8, an integer number. I notice the lack of mouse stutter compared to 120Hz in games and desktop. However, every now and then (every ?? seconds, idk) there's a random skip, as Chief said.

CrunchyBiscuit, you should get a high Hz monitor. You won't have to use 50Hz in order to have the smoothness of a 1000Hz mouse, but 100Hz or 125Hz. 125Hz works fine with BenQ blur reduction, but Lightboost and ULMB don't work over 120Hz.

Now, I must mention that if you use 120Hz or 144Hz, using VSYNC ON has a lot less penalty than it does at 60Hz. Also, the slewing input lag would be half as much amplitude (or less than that). It can get even better; if you combine GSYNC with game-engine framerate capping -- you have the permanent "VSYNC ON" look at all varying framerates, but without the input lag of VSYNC ON, and without the microstutters, or the slewing input lag effect caused by disjoint between framerate and refresh rate (VSYNC ON + slightly-under framerate cap). Also, I notice that software-based mouse smoothing tend to have a lot less lag on 120Hz+ monitors and GSYNC monitors, even when playing at game-engine framerate-capped 60fps.

Yep, I know. I used to have a 120Hz model for a little while, and the improvement compared to 60Hz in both smoothness, responsiveness and motion clarity was quite obvious. However, since my computer isn't exactly fast enough to actually render at 120fps, I often played at 60Hz anyway. Since the monitor was TN (I believe nearly all 120Hz+ monitors are TN, even nowadays) I went back to my trusty Dell 2209WA IPS. I just cannot stand the colorshifting on TN panels (you know, when you look from an angle everything gets rainbow colors and some colors invert).

Are you considering buying a "Better Than 60Hz" monitor at any point? Considering that certain models (e.g. BENQ Z-Series 60Hz strobing, or GSYNC monitors) provide benefits even for 60fps games?

I'm definitely interested in the G-Sync technology, but of course that would require me to buy a new videocard and a new monitor as well, I was hoping for a less expensive solution. Besides, nearly every (if not all of them) monitor I checked which was G-Sync capable, was also a TN.

Even with all the amazing new display technologies like higher Hz and G-Sync, the mouse polling rate/refresh rate conversion issue is not gonna be eliminated that way. Even worse, thanks to the newer motion clarity techniques and stuff, the issue would most likely become more obvious, as you yourself have pointed out several times. I certainly noticed it more when playing some undemanding games at 120fps/120Hz. At 60Hz, thanks to the motion streaking and blurring on my IPS, the issue became more tolerable, but not enough for me. Even at 50Hz (blur supreme), I can still notice the issue in games that use 1:1 mouse input.

I know most pro gamers are all for raw mouse and 1:1 mouse movement, which I both understand and support. However, not everybody has the same desires. Like me. Consistent motion smoothness is the most important factor for my enjoyment, and a raw mouse at 1000Hz isn't gonna cut it, not at any refresh rate.

I agree, there's now a market for 2000Hz mice (for the first daring mouse manufacturer) -- especially as I have since discovered that some USB3 ports have very tiny amounts of jitter (+/- 0.1ms average), and as I've posted a photo earlier in the thread, even 1000Hz has some barely-perceptible microstutter that I can just about barely notice during strobed mode -- that makes it "not quite as smooth as keyboard strafe left/right". During low-persitence operation (CRT or <1ms strobe length), the 1000Hz vs 2000Hz should become visible during 180-degree flicks when tracking eyes, for those of us attuned to low persistence, and also sensitive to microstutters.

Indeed, there is certainly a market for 2000Hz models. I know I'd probably be one of the first to try one, since buying a new mouse is generally a whole lot cheaper than buying a new videocard and monitor.

I agree very much with the article you wrote and am kinda bummed that many people still don't get the point or try to disprove it. To me, this stuff is just rather basic, and Hz/Hz/fps conversions have always caused these kinds of troubles even when there were no computers yet (Hz and framerate conversions are a well known subject in the TV industry). People just presume 1000Hz is such a large number, nobody will be able to perceive any difference. However, what we do perceive is not the raw 1000Hz polling, but how it interacts with refresh rates. It's never properly divisible. Indeed, like stated, higher polling rates should eventually overpower the situation and polling rates will become so high, the micro variances become unnoticeable. But were not there yet. In the meantime, I really believe synchronizing the mouse polling rate with the refresh rate is the best option. Most likely this would go hand in hand with a little extra input delay, which isn't a problem for me but I can see it being a problem for others. So gaming mice should have a new option called sync, so you can either pick 125Hz, 250Hz, 500Hz, 1000Hz, 2000Hz (possibly in the future) or sync, for example.

Would really like to see a well known hardware website or magazine publish an article on how refresh rates, frame rates and mouse polling rates interact with eachothers and how they are the three most important and most determining factors (assuming all other factors are eliminated) for motion clarity during mouse movement. Even though people might not actually understand it or be able to see it, at least they won't try to disprove or discredit it after a large well known magazine published an article like that.

As long as people are fine playing at low frame rates, fluctuating frame rates, v-sync off, 125Hz mouse polling, there's little chance of the majority becoming aware of all the subtle matters that produce a smooth moving image. Most people just don't really care enough and find people like me (and you I gather) nitpicky. Thanks to the new technologies and people having much higher average frame rates than they used to have 10 years ago, luckily there's some improvement lately (such as this website).

Easiest way to get systemwide 1000Hz smoothing is via the mouse hardware itself. Some 1000Hz mouse are much smoother than others, having some built-in mouse filtering (that can be enabled/disabled). Not all competitive gamers like it, as it can add possibly an extra millisecond of input lag, but for the stutter-haters at Blur Busters, it can make a significant difference.

Yes, I read about that and it does sound like the easiest way, but I am very curious to which mice exactly? I've tried many, many mice. Tried some of the Razers and their software, the CM Storms and their software, couple of SteelSeries and their software, two Roccats and their software. I prefer Logitech's software, so currently I'm using a G400s (good lens! Bad scroll wheel). Had a G500, G9x and regular G400 before as well. None of these provided any smoothing setting in the driver panel and none of the mice had any smoothing enabled by default either. Some did have a form of prediction (which didn't produce the desired results and stuttered a bit during sudden changes in direction) and some mice performed vastly different in the lens/DPI/speed department when compared to others, but they all behave pretty much the same with regards to the 1000Hz/refresh rate conversion issue. Most mice I tried out were optical, maybe I'll have better luck trying out laser mice?

Some mice have a bunch of options with fancy names, but nearly all of those options are just shortcuts to the basic windows mouse options (enhanced precision, sensitivity, etc). None of the options actually provide the smooth feature I'm looking for.

Do you know of any specific brand or type of mouse I should try? One that has a proper linear interpolated mouse smooth option, either via the drivers or always enabled. I need basic linear interpolation, like described in this article, but the other way around (instead of upscaling to higher Hz, I need downscaling to lower Hz, just like the linear smooth option in id-tech games, which performs absolutely flawless).

CrunchyBiscuit, you should get a high Hz monitor. You won't have to use 50Hz in order to have the smoothness of a 1000Hz mouse, but 100Hz or 125Hz. 125Hz works fine with BenQ blur reduction, but Lightboost and ULMB don't work over 120Hz.

Hey there!

I don't really mind the 50Hz, sure it's blurry and 125Hz is miles better, but as pointed out, a better monitor and higher refresh rate would only make the polling rate/refresh rate conversion issue become more apparent, not less (which is why more and more people are starting to notice it lately).

I have not yet tried out Lightboost, BenQ Blur Reduction or G-sync and these technologies really seem to be a step forward (finally I can have the glass smooth motion again I used to see on my old CRT! And G-sync should take care of any frame rate/refresh rate issues, which leaves only the polling rate issue), but I do not want to invest money for a solution that 'might make the problem less obvious, might make it more obvious, but certainly doesn't eliminate it'. I want complete elimination of the issue before I step up to a monitor supporting higher refresh rates. As long as the mouse is not properly smoothed, doesn't have a higher polling rate or isn't synchronized, it's all just wasted money to me.

I found another article which is closely related to this topic and might be interesting to readers. And this little piece of text might also teach some people a thing or two. Frame rate/refresh rate, polling rate/refresh rate - same principles apply.

Hey there again! Been a while.

Still no solution to the mouse polling rate/refresh rate problem.

There are many games on my shelf that I have yet to play, but cannot because I'm annoyed by the micro stutters during mouse movements.

Frame rates are solid, gamepad movement is 100% smooth. Mouse movement is ever so slightly stuttery, enough to bother me.

Tried even more (way too many) mice in the meantime and all their driver control settings. I also tried a couple of third party tools that smooth out mouse movement helping cases of hand tremors, but these do not solve the problem (polling rate issues remain the same, cursor movement is delayed/smoothed, but 125Hz still looks like 125Hz and 1000Hz still looks like 1000Hz).

Visited the most obscure corners of the internet to no avail. What a bummer. So many great games I'd like to play, they run well, but I can't 'unsee' the problem.

I'm willing to donate $1.000 to someone who can make me a proper mouse smoothing tool that is adjustable and strong enough to completely smooth out a 125Hz polling rate at any monitor refresh rate. I would like it to work globally, but if it works only in UE3, that'd be cool as well.

I know it should be possible to smooth the mouse movement in UE3 games (Afterfall Insanity does a great job at this). Unfortunately, I've not been able to force it in other UE3 games.

It should have the same effect as the seta m_smooth feature in id tech engine games or the lerp feature in Bionic Commando (NOT the default mouse smooth option many games offer, which doesn't help with the problem at all and only introduces a delay).

I guess I will just have to accept I won't ever be able to play Bioshock Infinite, Dishonored, Deus Ex HR, Tomb Raider or the hundreds of other cool games that use raw input (some aren't exactly raw in the strict meaning of the word, but they all exhibit the same problem).

You need to use the same refresh rate as mouse polling rate.
Try 125hz refresh rate. This will give you an even divider at 125hz 250hz ,500hz or 1000hz mouse polling rate then you can use whichever one has the lowest input lag and feels the most stable (500hz might work well).

This won't work with ULMB or lightboost, you need to use benq blur reduction for that.

Nah, tried all that already. It's not good enough if they're not hardware synced. The only feasable solution with current hardware would be a strong filter, which will add some delay but I don't mind that, as long as it's 100% smooth.

Raw mouse input at 125Hzpolling@125Hzrefresh isn't hardware synced. Both are arbitrary numbers and one will always end up being slightly higher or lower than the other, resulting in visible, observable motion artifacts (an obvious skip at lower polling rates and multiple tiny skips at higher polling rates). No matter how close I get by manually adjusting the refresh rate in the tiniest increments, both values will eventually start to misalign. Currently the closest I can get is 50fps@50Hzrefresh@1000Hzpolling (many multiples), panning the view with the mouse almost looks as smooth as strafing, but I still notice the nanostutters, unless the game offers a form of filtering or proper smoothing (Crysis 2, Rage, Doom3, Bionic Commando).

What mouse are you using?
Because I do not have this problem.
I'm using a Logitech G502.

I just tested UT2004 at 125hz/125hz, vsync on @ 1440x1080 and mouse turning was just as smooth as keyboard turning, and no stutters. Felt perfect (didn't like the 8 ms input lag, though). But it was literally perfect.

it did feel slightly worse when I was using the keyboard and mouse at the exact same time, but when just turning it was flawless.

500hz and 1000hz were still extremely smooth but not as perfect as 125hz was, but in no way was it noticable or distracting. I liked it and would definitely use it over 125hz (I could feel the input lag).

Again things did feel worse when using both the keyboard and mouse at the same time (e.g. strafing while turning).

Deathadders are downright horrible at 1000hz, although I'm not sure about the 2013 or Chroma versions.

Masterotaku also had problems until he switched to a Logitech mouse also and then it was just as smooth. we were discussing it on steam awhile go.