Blur Busters Forums

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

20 May 2020, 10:38

Sample-and-hold 60Hz, 120Hz, and 360Hz look identical for 60fps at 60Hz. You have 16.7ms of motion blur.

less latency skew (or whatever you call it) at higher Hz, if we assume that vblank is set to something reasonable in every case

flood wrote: ↑

20 May 2020, 10:40

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

20 May 2020, 10:38

Sample-and-hold 60Hz, 120Hz, and 360Hz look identical for 60fps at 60Hz. You have 16.7ms of motion blur.

less latency skew (or whatever you call it) at higher Hz, if we assume that vblank is set to something reasonable in every case

Yes, the scan skew -- www.testufo.com/scanskew
(View that on a native-60Hz LCD for the best effect!)

Unless you're trying to replicate original 60Hz scanskew on an original 60Hz CRT, at which case you want 1/60sec scanout. Also, latency gradient (top/center/bottom) is more original replicated with a 1/60sec scanout

However, this is not a priority for most emulator users; the motion clarity feel and the overall latency feel, is usually more important.

Another use of 360Hz could be custom BFI algorithms. With a 5:6 software BFI (5 black frames for every emulator frame, in a ~16%:84% strobe, gives you 84% motion blur reduction. You'd get ~2.8ms persistence at 60Hz, without needing a strobe backlight!

Heck, you could do software-based rolling scan (6-segments, with gamma-corrected alphablend between the segments) to emulate a CRT at the granular level. Theoretically it could run in sync with beam raced sync (coarse sync between emulator raster and real raster, as now implemented in some emulators like WinUAE).

Most emulators don't yet support custom BFI ratios (yet), such as 5:1 BFI instead of classic 50%:50% BFI.

Most emulators don't even yet support 3:1 BFI for non-strobed 240Hz monitors for a 75% motion blur reduction.

So one of you have to be a software developer to modify the emulator to add low-persistence custom-ratio software BFI or rolling scan, to the emulator, to lower 60Hz persistence to ~2.8 milliseconds.

AddictFPS wrote: ↑

20 May 2020, 07:24

Jason38 wrote: ↑

19 May 2020, 20:18

What if you were running say an emulator with Nintendo games would you show improvement with this monitor? I know most these games run at 60FPS but do you get the advantage of the 360hz at least from a motion blur stand point? If that's the case it would be worth it to me even if it added some input lag. These games don't have high requirements on your system either. Sometimes for us flicker sensitive people I feel like playing these old games is just not great at the moment unless you can tolerate BFI.

+1

Hope this monitor has unlocked and optimized single strobing in all fixed frequency range, including 60Hz of course, for 60FPS games or 60p streamings with motion blur reduction, otherwise, no bucks. And i'm sure we are not alone in this petition !

I play currently 60FPS games with 21" CRT monitor, and DisplayPort to VGA lag-less adapter Sunix DPU3000, small flicker is assumed, no problem, need to emulate this phosphor decay on LCD backlight, to trade motion blur with flicker, and users choice what prefer.

Super interesting. Yeah for playing old games at least for me the best strain free method has been to play on my plasma. I did buy a used Sony Trinitron but found the CRT flicker just gets to me after a while. I even had a CRT for my PC but found it to causes a lot of strain. Kind of annoys me as I would probably only play old games on CRT due to all the advantages of no lag and great image quality. I do own 3 FPGA systems and for the most part I can play most games strain free on my gaming monitor. If the motion is too much though they look really blurry so I have to play them on the Plasma.

Jason38 wrote: ↑

20 May 2020, 19:51

Super interesting. Yeah for playing old games at least for me the best strain free method has been to play on my plasma. I did buy a used Sony Trinitron but found the CRT flicker just gets to me after a while. I even had a CRT for my PC but found it to causes a lot of strain. Kind of annoys me as I would probably only play old games on CRT due to all the advantages of no lag and great image quality. I do own 3 FPGA systems and for the most part I can play most games strain free on my gaming monitor. If the motion is too much though they look really blurry so I have to play them on the Plasma.

Today, the best CRT clarity on a desktop LCD for emulators are:
(A) BenQ XL2411P single-strobe; or
(B) Emulator's software BFI mode (found in RetroArch, WinUAE and GroovyMAME), combined with 120Hz hardware strobing.

The XG270 looks excellent in GroovyMAME with PureXP+ 120Hz combined with GroovyMAME 60Hz software BFI (To black out every other strobe). Someone said it was competitive with a Sony FW900 CRT.

I think motion smoothness is still overall better on Sony GDM-FW900 Vs XG270, because is 100% crosstalk free at all frequencies 60-160Hz, accompanied with full brightness, great black and contrast, no backlight bleeding, dark games on it looks fantastic.

The main weak point i've see in CRT motion smoothness is phosphor decay time, for instance white object moving in circle fast on black background, a long trail white to black appears, comet effect, much more long that VA LCD in the same test, atrocious ! CRT with shorter decay phosphor can reduce it, but is a trade with more flickering, not good if 60FPS/Hz content is one of the targets. Due to this, some 60Hz CRT flicker less than others.

But no more CRT on shops, no way to choice, Game Over. Straight to XG270, and hope Viewsonic listen clients and Blur Busters massive petition to unlock 60-75Hz range: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6081

The most odd in this matter is i can't understand how BenQ Zowie allow 60Hz single strobe in XL2411p 200$ monitor, they know that the great sell succes of this old model is due to this special feature, and lock it in all modern monitor after it losing money of people that inmediately upgrade XL2411p to new BenQ 240Hz They don't want more money ?

Whats the problem of add one OSD setting to unlock single strobe at all fixed frequencies monitor can do ? User decide what prefer, and monitor manufacturer sell more. Just show a warning message about flicker when user try activate it, to let him know that some people has high sensitivity to flicker, and this feature should be completely avoided in this case.

For 60 and 120 FPS content with low motion blur, but assuming 22ms input lag and moderate brightness levels, a expensive solution can be buyed soon: LG TV OLED CX 48" 4K 120Hz. This "infinite contrast" monster use BFI (Black Frame Insertion) OLED Motion Pro Off-Low-Medium-High-Auto, and get that the motion feel is very similar to CRT and Plasma. Obvious at 60Hz High there are small flicker like CRT, is normal, is "emulating" it. But with 120FPS/Hz BFI High, flicker can't be see

No overshot artifacts and 100% crosstalk free. This is not for competitive 60FPS games due to 22ms inputlag, but is great for any else 60 and 120FPS content for motion blur haters.

Thanks to this youtube 60p upload of LG OLED BX 60FPS/Hz BFI test, if you have CRT or Plasma screen set at 60Hz, you can see very aproximately how this new OLED can trade lower brightness with lower motion blur. Sometimes Mario game sudently drop from 60FPS to 30FPS, and ugly double image appears, but is console performance issue, not issue with BFI, when return to 60FPS again the magic appears. Medium is good balance, High get great motion blur reduction.



Hope Dell Alienware 360Hz monitor has great strobing features to play 60FPS games almost motion blur free like in these new OLED TV.

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

17 May 2020, 15:43

Greater than 2:1 frame rate amplification ratios progbably won't happen this year, unless NVIDIA is hiding something unannounced in the RTX 3000 series. But who knows?

Given the huge improvement of tensor cores in the NVIDIA A100 design, I suspect that between that an the density improvements on the silicon, we'll go close to 5x amplification with the RTX 3000 series.

DLSS also seems to be easier to implement than ever, and that will eventually progress to being able to be forced on in the driver settings. IMO, there's your road to 480Hz, at the very least.

jasswolf wrote: ↑

22 May 2020, 01:34

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

17 May 2020, 15:43

Greater than 2:1 frame rate amplification ratios progbably won't happen this year, unless NVIDIA is hiding something unannounced in the RTX 3000 series. But who knows?

Given the huge improvement of tensor cores in the NVIDIA A100 design, I suspect that between that an the density improvements on the silicon, we'll go close to 5x amplification with the RTX 3000 series.

DLSS also seems to be easier to implement than ever, and that will eventually progress to being able to be forced on in the driver settings. IMO, there's your road to 480Hz, at the very least.

I'm more hoping for 3x to 4x, but will be excited to see 5x frame rate amplification.

There may be real-world applications of the "Temporally Dense Raytracing" algorithms to spread the rays temporally over multiple refresh cycles. It is a form of frame rate amplification technology for ray tracing purposes. NVIDIA credited Blur Busters on page 2 of this paper. That said, if conventional 3D is combined with raytracing, they both separately may need frame rate amplification technologies concurrently, to keep either of them from being a framerate-amplification-ratio weak link.

The next step beyond 360 Hz will probably make frame rate amplification mandatory. Even 240 Hz and 360 Hz will hugely benefit, for people who would like to see improved motion quality without latency penalty (ideally never worse than the original pre-amplified frame rate, e.g. 10ms frametime lag of 100 frames per second).

AddictFPS wrote: ↑

21 May 2020, 02:50

For 60 and 120 FPS content with low motion blur, but assuming 22ms input lag and moderate brightness levels, a expensive solution can be buyed soon: LG TV OLED CX 48" 4K 120Hz. This "infinite contrast" monster use BFI (Black Frame Insertion) OLED Motion Pro Off-Low-Medium-High-Auto, and get that the motion feel is very similar to CRT and Plasma.

Don't forget the interacting tradeoffs.

LD OLED BFI still has 8ms of motion blur, which is 8x worse than the ViewSonic XG270. The OLED BFI in current LG models is currently unable to achieve less than 8ms of persistence. Theoreti, it can shrink to 4ms with a firmware fix, but that is still 4x more motion blur.

BFI pulse width is directly proportional to motion blur.

8ms flash = 8ms of motion blur = 8 pixels of motion blur per 1000 pixels/sec
4ms flash = 4ms of motion blur = 4 pixels of motion blur per 1000 pixels/sec
2ms flash = 2ms of motion blur = 2 pixels of motion blur per 1000 pixels/sec
1ms flash = 1ms of motion blur = 1 pixels of motion blur per 1000 pixels/sec

It also accumulates. 2ms at 3000 pixels/sec = 6 pixels of motion blurring at 3000 pixels/sec.
Also, crosstalk is faint enough on some LCDs that it is a non-issue.
And sometimes crosstalk faintness can be compared to phosphor ghosting faintness (FW900 has faint phosphor ghosting, due to slow phosphor), which is gentle and typically non-objectionable.

Also, OLED screens cannot fit inside a MAME arcade cabinet. However, a ViewSonic XG270 (with VESA stand removed) can fit inside a MAME arcade cabinet, and because it is an IPS screen, can run in portrait mode well without the TN viewing angle problem, to match more of a native arcade CRT.

If your budget for a MAME arcade screen was strictly $500 INCLUDING shipping, can you do better than a ViewSonic XG270 or a strobed IPS screen? You would even be lucky to get someone to freight-ship you a NOS (New Old Stock) arcade CRT tube for that cheap.

Even if cost was no object -- if your priority is 1ms motion blur like a CRT, you cannot achieve it with OLED yet, no OLED TV at any price (five figures) yet achieves 1ms MPRT. NONE. NONE.
Why Does Some OLEDs Have Motion Blur?

Is 8ms MPRT good enough? Just want a big arcade screen? Sure. LG OLED TV, 55" on Amazon sale, go buy it.

But it has far more motion blur than the best strobed LCDs. If you need something smaller, and/or you need something close to 1ms MPRT for ultrafast panning arcade games -- then skip the crappy-quality LightBoost LCDs and get a good modern strobed IPS LCD (120Hz hardware strobe + 60Hz software strobe combo), if you want good 60Hz motion clarity for arcade games, both landscape and portrait, in a MAME arcade cabinet.

Jason38 wrote: ↑

19 May 2020, 20:18

What if you were running say an emulator with Nintendo games would you show improvement with this monitor? I know most these games run at 60FPS but do you get the advantage of the 360hz at least from a motion blur stand point? If that's the case it would be worth it to me even if it added some input lag. These games don't have high requirements on your system either. Sometimes for us flicker sensitive people I feel like playing these old games is just not great at the moment unless you can tolerate BFI.

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

22 May 2020, 11:07

Also, OLED screens cannot fit inside a MAME arcade cabinet. However, a ViewSonic XG270 (with VESA stand removed) can fit inside a MAME arcade cabinet, and because it is an IPS screen, can run in portrait mode well without the TN viewing angle problem, to match more of a native arcade CRT.

If your budget for a MAME arcade screen was strictly $500 INCLUDING shipping, can you do better than a ViewSonic XG270 or a strobed IPS screen? You would even be lucky to get someone to freight-ship you a NOS (New Old Stock) arcade CRT tube for that cheap.

I understand the math of doing (1000/60=16.7ms vs 1000/240=4.2ms) in order to get delay times but if Freesync is active is there still a benefit in having a 240hz or higher display for playing 60fps games in RetroArch or MAME?

I have an HP 27f IPS 75hz freesync monitor in my MAME cabinet which is also used for RetroArch. At 75hz I get a slight advantage from 60hz but is that still sufficient?

Since arcade games run at different refresh rates, (Mortal Combat - 54.7hz, Pac-man - 60.6hz) a 75hz VRR monitor allows those games to run at their native refresh rate. Would I see a noticeable difference in scrolling or less input lag if I switched to a ViewSonic XG270?

Does a setup primarily used for MAME or retro console 60fps games gain anything by having a 240hz or higher VRR monitor?

If the answer is no, would getting a 4K VRR monitor be a better option to take advantage of cleaner HLSL settings?

bpg710 wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2020, 21:30

I understand the math of doing (1000/60=16.7ms vs 1000/240=4.2ms) in order to get delay times but if Freesync is active is there still a benefit in having a 240hz or higher display for playing 60fps games in RetroArch or MAME?

I have an HP 27f IPS 75hz freesync monitor in my MAME cabinet which is also used for RetroArch. At 75hz I get a slight advantage from 60hz but is that still sufficient?

Since arcade games run at different refresh rates, (Mortal Combat - 54.7hz, Pac-man - 60.6hz) a 75hz VRR monitor allows those games to run at their native refresh rate. Would I see a noticeable difference in scrolling or less input lag if I switched to a ViewSonic XG270?

Does a setup primarily used for MAME or retro console 60fps games gain anything by having a 240hz or higher VRR monitor?

If the answer is no, would getting a 4K VRR monitor be a better option to take advantage of cleaner HLSL settings?

Are you motion-blur priority or resolution-priority?

For blur-priority (temporal resolution), consider good strobe such as XG270.
For resolution-priority (spatial resolution), consider 4K+ VRR

A good 120Hz strobed screen (ULMB, PureXP, etc) has about 1/10th the motion blur of any 75Hz FreeSync display. It's like this:



Be noted you need to do the software BFI trick to convert 120Hz-180Hz hardware strobing to 60Hz. RetroArch, for example, now supports BFI for 120Hz, 180Hz, 240Hz, and other multiples of emulator refresh rate.

Remember you cannot combine VRR and strobing at the same time on most monitors, although some models have hacks that lets you do that (e.g. ULMB 60Hz hack).