Blur Busters Forums

Hello,

I've spent weeks of researching trying to figure out what is the best monitor for me, and overall I've come to the conclusion that almost every monitor out there on the market has some form of compromise due to the limitations of LCD panels.

IPS Glow?
Backlight bleed?
Ghosting?
Dead pixels?
Stupid overdrive tech that can potentially cause headaches?
Curved screens primarily for VA panel?
Bad contrast?
SLOW GtG response times!


Why are we still dealing with these issues in this day and age?

A couple of years ago I've tried:
Asus ROG Swift PG248Q 24", colours sucked on the desktop and too much motion blur.
AOC 24G2U/BK 23.8" IPS, colours sucked on the desktop and too much motion blur.
BenQ Zowie XL2430, colours sucked on the desktop and too much motion blur.

Why is it that an old cheaper 60hz display destroys these overpriced displays in colour and clarity at 60hz? I really feel like 'gaming monitors' are seriously behind and don't care about desktop colours or accuracy and only care about being good at one thing.

Here's what I'm looking for:
A monitor that is great to look at in game and on the desktop.
I want CRT level of clarity or at the very least the very closest thing to it.
I'm willing to spend what it takes to get the best monitor with no compromise.
I like to play a mixture of old and new games - so the monitor would need to be good at almost all frame rates, e.g. 60fps and 240fps.

Size and resolutions I'm looking for:
24" 1080p - This is the sweet spot for me. But I would like to try 1440p so that enemies aren't 4 pixels in the distance in say Warzone, Overwatch, etc.
27" 1440p - I'm thinking of trying 1440p but the problem is potentially having to sit further away right? so I may just settle on 1080p for now. I don't want 1080p 27", that's just bad.
4K high refresh rate gaming is practically non-existent for 144hz and 240hz at this time and isn't worth it.

The closest thing to CRTs is an OLED display, but it's still early days for the tech and they're all way too big! I just want a 27" or 24" OLED display, I don't have space for a 34" or 42" monitor. 20 Years later and we're using CRT-like tech in LCDs

Here's what I may or may not get:
ViewSonic Elite XG270QG
Predator XB3 Gaming Monitor | XB273UKF (27") WQHD (2560 x 1440) 300 Hz - no reviews or any mentions of this new monitor yet?
Acer Nitro XV2 Gaming Monitor | XV272UKF - (27") WQHD (2560 x 1440) 300 Hz
Acer Nitro XV2 Gaming Monitor | XV252QF (24.5") Full HD (1920 x 1080) 390Hz Overclock DP, 360Hz DP, 240Hz HDMI

What do you think? Do I get a 1080p display with a higher refresh rate to stop the motion blur? e.g. over 300hz? Do I settle for 240hz 1440p? is there such a monitor that has no compromise?

Dalek wrote: ↑

21 Oct 2022, 11:11

is there such a monitor that has no compromise?

Nope.

You may want to keep an eye out on this one if you're thinking 1440p though:
https://pcmonitors.info/asus/asus-rog-s ... th-g-sync/

There's no such monitor. The closest thing to CRT level clarity is the newest 360hz xl2566k and you need 360+ fps to get the most out of it, although it will still be smooth at lower refresh rates, its basically made for csgo and valorant. There's no current way to match CRT fluidity with the current technology of panels other than brute forcing higher refresh rates. They're coming out with 500hz monitors soon

woodyfly wrote: ↑

21 Oct 2022, 13:18

There's no such monitor. The closest thing to CRT level clarity is the newest 360hz xl2566k and you need 360+ fps to get the most out of it, although it will still be smooth at lower refresh rates, its basically made for csgo and valorant. There's no current way to match CRT fluidity with the current technology of panels other than brute forcing higher refresh rates. They're coming out with 500hz monitors soon

I was looking at that one as well, but then will the colours be awful on the desktop like I previously experienced? I guess I'll have to try it myself and see.

jorimt wrote: ↑

21 Oct 2022, 12:58

Dalek wrote: ↑

21 Oct 2022, 11:11

is there such a monitor that has no compromise?

Nope.

You may want to keep an eye out on this one if you're thinking 1440p though:
https://pcmonitors.info/asus/asus-rog-s ... th-g-sync/

Thank you for recommending this, I hope 360hz is enough to make the ghosting not noticable on it. I'll buy it when it's available. Now it's just the challenge of keeping the framerate that high consistently

Dalek wrote: ↑

21 Oct 2022, 13:46

Thank you for recommending this, I hope 360hz is enough to make the ghosting not noticable on it. I'll buy it when it's available. Now it's just the challenge of keeping the framerate that high consistently

An RTX 4090 can probably swing that at 1440p, at least for comp games...if you can ever get a hold of one, that is (I have yet to, but then I'm holding out for an FE).

No such perfect monitor.

It's still all pick-your-poison.

Even OLED has much more motion blur than zero-crosstalk custom QFT-tuned ViewSonic XG2431 PureXP, albiet OLED colors and non-strobed brightness will beat it handidly. OLED has the best non-strobed motion clarity for sample and hold Hz. So a 120Hz OLED beats all 120Hz LCDs without strobing.

But with strobing, there are some superlative-tuned panels such as www.blurbusters.com/xg2431

ViewSonic XG2431 + PureXP + QFT + Strobe Utility is the closest thing to CRT right now, IMHO, when using large blanking intervals combined with refresh rate headroom tricks.



The only thing better is VR LCDs such as Valve Index VR headset, or Quest 2 VR headset, both of which definitely has clearer motion than a CRT tube. (Even though blacks and color gamut are not as good as CRT)

XG2431 is one of the few LCDs that can match many CRTs at 60Hz too!

Do you prefer flicker strobe-backlight motion blur reduction? (Works at low Hz too)
Or do you prefer brute framerate-based motion blur reduction? (Never helps 60fps or 60Hz)

These are the only two ways to reduce display motion blur.
Please refer to these two diagrams as a reference:





Pixel visibility time = motion blur.
Pixel visibility time without flicker = motion blur is frametime.
Pixel visibility time with flicker = motion blur is flicker time (flash).
This is because of sample and hold (see www.testufo.com/eyetracking on an OLED -- still motion blur!!!)

That's why OLED and LCD has more motion blur.
Even 0ms GtG has lots of motion blur, because MPRT is not zero.

There are two pixel response measurements, Pixel Response FAQ: GtG and MPRT
Faster GtG can reduce motion blur, but display motion blur can never be less than MAX(time of one refresh cycle, time of frametime). So a 240Hz nonstrobed display can never have 1/240sec motion blur at 240fps 240Hz. And the same 240Hz nonstrobed display can never have less than 1/60sec motion blur at 60fps 240Hz.

For brute framerate-based blur reduction (if you hate CRT flicker), get the fastest GtG at highest Hz you can get (e.g. OLED or E-TN or sheer brute Hz), get the RTX 4090, enable DLSS 3.0, and spray the framerate hard at your monitor for all the cows to come home. Doubling framerate halves display motion blur on sample and hold displays. You need 1000fps 1000Hz to make an OLED or LCD match CRT motion clarity without flicker or strobing like a CRT.

For more information:
See: CRT Motion Nirvana FAQ For Disappointed CRT Upgraders
See: Blur Busters Law: The Amazing Journey To Future 1000Hz Displays
See: Blur Busters Area 51 Display Research

Dalek wrote: ↑

21 Oct 2022, 11:11

ViewSonic Elite XG270QG

If you get the XG series, get the XG2431 which is the clearest-motion of all of them. I know, because ViewSonic paid me consulting fees to strobe-tune them to CRT motion clarity. They sent me a bunch of these monitors and the XG2431 was the easiest to reprogram to match a CRT tube.

Dalek wrote: ↑

21 Oct 2022, 11:11

Predator XB3 Gaming Monitor | XB273UKF (27") WQHD (2560 x 1440) 300 Hz - no reviews or any mentions of this new monitor yet?
Acer Nitro XV2 Gaming Monitor | XV272UKF - (27") WQHD (2560 x 1440) 300 Hz
Acer Nitro XV2 Gaming Monitor | XV252QF (24.5") Full HD (1920 x 1080) 390Hz Overclock DP, 360Hz DP, 240Hz HDMI

If you prefer brute framerate-based motion blur reduction, these are great.
60Hz motion blur is as bad on all of these as a 60Hz LCD.

But if you prefer strobe-based motion blur reduction, XG2431 can outperform these models when using strobing, and the bonus is that it is one of the only LCDs to match a CRT. XG2431 can do strobed refresh rates (flicker like a CRT) from 59Hz to 241Hz in 0.001Hz increments.

Best results occur when you use refresh rate headroom techniques (e.g. 100Hz strobing on 240Hz monitors look MUCH better than 100Hz strobing on 144Hz monitors), and at some point. When enough techniques are combined (QFT), the panel goes perfect zero-crosstalk with no GtG at all. Because GtG100% is completely perfectly hidden in an ultra-long 13 millisecond blanking interval (because a 60Hz refresh cycle is scanned-out ultrafast in 1/240sec, leaving a lot of time for LCD GtG to disappear completely unseen by human eyes in total darkness, before the backlight strobe-flashes on perfect refresh cycles)

woodyfly wrote: ↑

21 Oct 2022, 13:18

There's no such monitor. The closest thing to CRT level clarity is the newest 360hz xl2566k and you need 360+ fps to get the most out of it, although it will still be smooth at lower refresh rates, its basically made for csgo and valorant. There's no current way to match CRT fluidity with the current technology of panels other than brute forcing higher refresh rates.

False.

Yes, XL2566K is amazing for brute framerate-based motion blur reduction.
Go buy the XL2566K if you want high frame rates and don't want DyAc.

However, if you're wanting to motion blur reduce low frame rate -- The XG2431 can definitely go zero-crosstalk between 60Hz-100Hz, that 240Hz panel is so good that it can be configured to emulate a 60-100Hz CRT tube -- sometimes with less motion blur than these CRTs.

Here's an example rave review, as long as you use ToastyX's new Vertical Total Calculator (never tested by reviewers) -- better XG2431 quality than reviewers managed to achieve.

I also hear XL2566K can go crosstalkless at 100Hz, but XL2566K can't emulate a CRT under 99Hz. The XG2431 has a crosstalkless strobe refresh rate range of ~59Hz-100Hz if you use maximum QFT with ToastyX's Brand New Vertical Total Calculator:

HOWTO: Settings For Full Panel Crosstalk-Free Low-Lag Strobing (ViewSonic XG2431)

If you follow these instructions correctly, you get better motion clarity than a Sony FW900 CRT tube! Perfect motion blur reduction of low refresh rates & low frame rates. You do have the flicker problem and the brightness loss problem, pick-poisons, and you don't get CRT blacks, but the persistence of XG2431 is capable of being less than the persistence of a medium-persistence CRT tube.
.
It's been Blur Busters' best work to date. Unfortunately I couldn't get ViewSonic to preprogram QFT modes, so reviewers never got the best strobe modes, but I was able to trojanhorse a lot of manual DIY strobe-tuning capability into the panel -- beyond the capability of a modern BenQ -- with more settings (OD Gain), gigantic Vertical Total capability, and manual strobe-recalibration capability that allows end users to recalibrate to get better-than-out-of-box strobe quality.

Much like a colorimeter can recalibrate colors to better than factory, Strobe Utility can recalibrate motion blur reduction to better than factory.



From an email:

"Honestly - it looks great! Motion clarity that's probably superior to CRT and virtually no crosstalk."

From a forum post:

Chief Blur Buster - finally got it working! HOLY SHIT!!! 60hz is crosstalk free!!! Gonna play some Streets of Rage 4 now.

As a honest disclosure -- remember, you don't get CRT colors and blacks and such, but you at least beat CRT motion clarity with an XG2431 panel. I guarantee you will be shocked how clear this panel can do low refresh rates.

However, if you prefer flickerless framerate-based motion blur reduction, you have to permanently say goodbye to low-framerates and stick only to ultra high frame rates.

What most people (and manufacturers) don't know is that you need (A) framerate=Hz, (B) QFT, (C) refresh rate headroom to create low refresh rates containing large VBIs to hide LCD GtG between refresh cycles.

"1ms" VESA GtG (10ms real-world GtG100%) can be completely hidden in a 13 millisecond blanking interval between refresh cycles nowadays with the XG2431 tricks. At 60Hz, the backlight is turned off for the entire 13 milliseconds (hiding GtG from human eyes), so only perfectly-finished LCD refreshes are strobe-flashed. We do tricks manufacturers didn't know about.



So, top/center/bottom, zero crosstalk, 60Hz as clear in motion as stationary image, you can even read www.testufo.com/map at 60Hz on an XG2431!

No OLED can ever yet beat the best-tuned LCD strobe backlights when utilizing refresh rate headroom tricks (QFT), e.g. strobing at <= 120Hz QFT on a >= 240Hz since refresh rate headroom allows LCD to accurately match and exceed CRT motion resolution.

The 175+ Hz OLEDs are fantastic, as is the XL2566K E-TN LCD too, among the best strobeless blur reduction I've seen. Remember, 175Hz OLED is clearer than 240Hz LCD, but the XL2566K E-TN LCD (with DyAc=OFF) beats the 175Hz OLED. The OLED has a roughly 1.5x blur-per-Hz advantage due to lack of GtG component in sample-and-hold.

Almost no desktop LCDs support 60Hz strobe, with the exception of a few panels. Manufacturers prevent users from unlocking the strobe frequency, because of flicker complaints, but I was able to get ViewSonic to unlock the strobe refresh rate range all the way down to 59Hz. Which means the XG2431 is one of the only desktop LCD panels on the market. able to reach CRT motion clarity territory at practically all useful refresh rates (and exceed it, given custom retuning)

Unfortunately you can't get compromises-free.
Remember,
- XL2566K is not a motion blur catchall (it can't do low-hz blur reduction)
- XG2431 is not a motion blur catchall (It can't do strobeless blur reduction at 500Hz)
- OLED is not a motion blur catchall (while superlative in nonstrobed, no desktop OLEDs have strobing feature)
Etc.

Want amazing colors and flickerfree, with minimum possible blur? 175fps 175Hz OLEDs have almost perfectly 1/3rd the motion blur of a 60Hz OLED.

Want the better motion clarity than a CRT at low refresh rates? Nothing desktop format beats XG2431, and the only thing better is VR LCDs which currently has less motion blur than CRT tubes. But you have the color and black compromises of LCD.

Want brute framerate based motion blur reduction, with less motion blur than the current 175 Hz OLEDs? Get a 360Hz+ LCD. The XL2566K has some of the best GtG found in a 360Hz LCD, so that's pretty popular, even though it is not wide-gamut and has the LCD quirks (no CRT style blacks).

You can't get it all in one display unfortunately.
What framerates goals do you have?
What framerates do you want to blur-reduce?
High frame rates or low frame rates?
Is absolute best colors OR absolute zero blur more important? Pick one of two.
Etc.

TL;DR
- If you want the world's best strobe-based desktop LCD motion blur reduction for low frame rates, nothing currently beats an XG2431. XL2566K below 99fps can't beat a properly strobe-tuned XG2431 with PureXP Custom + QFT + Strobe Utility. The XL2566K has a hardware lock preventing it from emulating a CRT below 99Hz, disqualifying it from being able to beat CRT on low frame rates.
- If you want the world's best framerate-based motion blur reduction, the OLED panels, the E-TN panels, and several 300Hz+ panels are the Way To Go at the moment.
- There are other balances of compromises.

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

21 Oct 2022, 21:30

You can't get it all in one display unfortunately.
What framerates goals do you have?
What framerates do you want to blur-reduce?
High frame rates or low frame rates?
Is absolute best colors OR absolute zero blur more important? Pick one of two.
Etc.

What if you buy an E-TN panel for brute framerate-based blur reduction but don't have the RTX 4090 and don't consistently hit 360hz in FPS games? (an fps < Hz scenario e.g Battle Royale games where there can be FPS fluctuations of maybe 260 to 350 fps depending on the scenery)

Would you still benefit from such a monitor (for the reasons you originally wanted it, 360Hz, fantastic motion blur, low input lag), or is it a complete waste of money and even makes your gaming experience more inconsistent?