Blur Busters Forums

Hello, I bought an Alienware AW3423DWF last week. I have like 1 or 2 days before I can still return it, if I decide to do so.

My eyes seem to become irritated or dry while using it after a few hours. I tried to maintain some ergonomic rules: standing 60-70 cm away from the display, having the eyeline at the top of the monitor and taking breaks. I also wear prescribed glasses with blue light reducing lens.

I also tried various combinations of brightness/HDR/f.lux, but they do not seem to affect the dryness of the eyes.

What could be the cause for the strain?

I made some investigation on the flicker side:

If I film with the shutter at 1/8000, I can see horizontal lines.

At 165 Hz, I can see a lot of lines that are almost "flashing" (appearing/disappearing). At 60Hz, it's a single slow line.

Also, if I record the screen with the "slow mode" at 240 frames, at 1h65 Hz, the screen seems to be flashing.
At 60 hz it does not seem to do that.

I also tried the blurtrail test from testufo dot com.
At 60hz the line is smooth, at 165Hz, I think I can see multiple lines.
This image is from rtings, with the backlight. It seems that it doesn't have PWM, however there is a small dip in brightness with each refresh. Not sure if the pupil is able to catch that and dilate/constrict, resulting in eye strain.

The last monitor I had (since 2016) was an old LG IPS of 24''. I could stay 8h on it without any eye issue. This is my first 34'' curved monitor.

Do you have any advice on what could the cause be and what else could I try with this monitor?

Oh, it's quite possible PWM (even of this shallow depth) can be the cause of eyestrain!

Especially if this is your first (few) times, then this becomes the automatic top 5 ergonomic culprits to investigate. You should test other displays too, while you're at it too;

But there's practically over 100+ different ergonomic issues with displays. Sometimes (dice-roll style) it ends up being something completely different, even if purchasing another monitor that also happens to be PWM-free (e.g. older Apple non-PWM-MiniLED screen) but also happens to be glossy too (e.g. older Apple non-PWM-MiniLED screen). Those were very eye friendly, relatively speaking but solved multiple ergonomic issues all at the same time.

It's often very expensive to try to eliminate multiple ergonomic issues one at a time, so Blur Busters general recommendation is go dramatically left-field to try different things;

So, to help provide more data points:

When trying to troubleshoot yourself, please be as detailed as possible:
- Whether it has only been 1 display bothering you; or you've tried many
- What you tried
- What framerates you're testing at
- Whether you get eyestrain only during motion
- What refresh rates you tried (even test out 24Hz refresh rate)
- What settings you tried (resolution, color, VRR, strobe, etc)
- What displays bother you
- What displays don't bother you
- When experimenting, try to go left field as far as you can

If you can add more data points, I can make better judgements. For example if you say you had no eyestrain with "Display X" (and I know Display X had PWM) then that's another datapoint your eyestrain might be caused by additional issues above-and-beyond PWM issues. And if you give a consistent history of displays with PWM you eyestrained on and displays without PWM that you never eyestrained on; it's almost certainly PWM style effects contributing to your ergonomic issue.

Knowing whether this is your first display with bad eyestrain, or the umpteenth -- is important too, because:
...We see too many people try 10 displays, but often users keep rolling dice on 24-27" only-LCD only-LED-backlit only-high-Hz only-antiglare-filtered monitors, without going Super Left Field.
...Trying the Same Thing Over And Over.
...The "Go Left Field" (try dramatically different displays of size, tech, coating, refresh rate, resolution, size, distance, panel type, etc) to rapidly binary-search their way through >100 display ergonomic issues. Some that may or may not go far beyond just PWM (or that this tiny leftover PWM becomes an accidental redherring, as it often does a double-digit percentage of time)

At this stage, IF, this is your first display you're eyestraining on, then you definitely want to try a display rated as completely PWM-free. You want to rule out the most common double-digit-percent-chance ergonomic culprits as quickly as possible, even if none of them is a majority chance. But as a timesaver, you should list-off all displays that did / didn't give you eyestrain -- in order to even attempt to extrapolate a "What To Try Next?"

If you have TN, try IPS/VA/OLED. If you have QD-OLED and want to stay OLED, try WOLED. Etc.

Thank you very much for the response! So yes, the first suspect might be PWM. There is no way I can reduce its effects, right? Also, my eyes won't get adjusted to PWM flicker, right?

More information:
- it is the first display that I manifest eye strain
- I tested at 60/100/165Hz. I don't see much difference in terms of strain on this monitor
- I think I get strain even in static (motion)
- I tried UWQHD, I tried 1080p too, I tried using only half the monitor through PIP/PBP, but it was the same thing
- My current phone Realme GT2 Pro is using LTPO2 AMOLED, 1B colors, 120Hz, HDR10+, 500 nits (typ), 800 nits (HBM), 1400 nits (peak), which does NOT bother me. My old phone OnePlus 7t was using Fluid AMOLED, 90Hz, HDR10+, it did not bother me. My previous monitor was LG 23MP68VQ-P, IPS (old tech, not nano IPS) 75Hz, it did not bother me. I also have a Samsung QLED TV which does not bother me. Other monitors: I had some old AOCs and BenQs, among the first LCDs which did not bothered me. CRTs... I don't think they bothered me, but I was a kid back then, in the CRT era.

john_gaming wrote: ↑

27 Dec 2023, 20:00

Thank you very much for the response! So yes, the first suspect might be PWM. There is no way I can reduce its effects, right? Also, my eyes won't get adjusted to PWM flicker, right?

The answer is not an easy yes/no answer.

It can easily be No/No, but it also certainly have turned out to be Yes(limited)/No(can't get used to it) and Yes(limited)/Yes(depends on human).

Keep in mind that PWM-derived ergonomic issues is only closer to a 50-50 chance (or 25-75%-like / 75-25%-like odds) of being your definite problem, so you SHOULD be open minded about other possible ergonomics. The wide Internet generally excessively parrots the PWM rabbit hole -- to the inappropriate exclusion of other ergonomic maladies, despite PWM being one of the biggest ergonomic problems.

john_gaming wrote: ↑

27 Dec 2023, 20:00

More information:
- it is the first display that I manifest eye strain
- I tested at 60/100/165Hz. I don't see much difference in terms of strain on this monitor
- I think I get strain even in static (motion)
- I tried UWQHD, I tried 1080p too, I tried using only half the monitor through PIP/PBP, but it was the same thing
- My current phone Realme GT2 Pro is using LTPO2 AMOLED, 1B colors, 120Hz, HDR10+, 500 nits (typ), 800 nits (HBM), 1400 nits (peak), which does NOT bother me. My old phone OnePlus 7t was using Fluid AMOLED, 90Hz, HDR10+, it did not bother me. My previous monitor was LG 23MP68VQ-P, IPS (old tech, not nano IPS) 75Hz, it did not bother me. I also have a Samsung QLED TV which does not bother me. Other monitors: I had some old AOCs and BenQs, among the first LCDs which did not bothered me. CRTs... I don't think they bothered me, but I was a kid back then, in the CRT era.

Which means you've got quite a few PWM displays that never bothered you.
So it COULD be the PWM issue, but it could be something else.

If you want to attempt to stick to existing monitor

1. Try bias lighting behind your screen be careful many RGB dimmable smart bulbs have PWM so try a simple incandescent Xmas bulb lightlight if you've got a history of lighbulb PWM eyestrain.
2. Turn off ClearType - The green/purple fringing on QD-OLED from odd OLED pixel structure is a known ergonomic issue for some (just a visual annoyance to me, not eyestrain annoyance -- but it is for some). Or use www.mactype.net font for Windows with custom subpixel configuration for QD-OLED. I've got a GIGANTIC github thread at Microsoft, as I complain about this issue, though from more a purely cosmetic POV for myself.
3. Try unusually low refresh rate 24Hz. Create it as a custom Hz if necessary, all the OLEDs support 24Hz. Just to quickly rule out an unlikely problem (but one that definitely exists), as a low lying apple to quickly try out a defacto equivalent of "Reduce Motion" ergonomic accessibility setting. If this happens, test different frame rates at TestUFO Framerates Versus (high and low settings) to see which ones produce the least eyestrain. Change computer use accordingly (and GPU/game settings) if necessary, since OLED stutters more than LCD at certain near-60fps frame rates due to fast pixel response
4. Try orange-tinted computer glasses Like sunglasses except orange tinted. Many on Amazon exists. This will help fix bluish-grey LCD blacks, which F.Lux / Color Temperature / adjustments won't fix. Basically a physical verison of Low Blue Light that's more reliable. Now, this doesn't apply to OLED which is quite different, so your problem may not be blue light related; but it's a more powerful physical version of F.Lux to try out, that is cheaper than a new monitor.
5. Add extra viewing distance Buy a new desk if need be. First, test on a different piece of furniture (kitchen table) or a 2nd desk in front of your existing desk (so you get extra distance for your keyboard and mouse). If it solves, then get a new deeper desk. People upgrading to TVs and ultrawides for first time on their desk, sometimes get fewer ergonomic issues while other people sometimes gets more ergonomic issues. You might unexpectedly discover you need slightly less FOV to get back to your ergonomic sweet spot.
6. Turn on GPU blur effect This can be a defacto Ergonomic Accessibility Setting. I hate this setting, but it fixed eyestrain for some people for motion material. This may not affect you as you said you're affected with static material

Also, you might have a situation where you're bothered by two things at the same time; a combination of PWM plus at least one other ergonomic issue (that triggers PWM being worse). But it could just be PWM, or just other ergonomic issue. Could be the color spectrum you're getting (extreme unusually sharp blue peaks).

Try a different new monitor

This is usually the easiest and quickest for anybody who has experienced only 1 display with eyestrain -- the odds are low as long as you at least change up something (but at least go slightly left field, e.g. don't replace a 24" TN with another 24" TN). If you want to stick to OLED, try testing WOLED replacement for QD-OLED, since I've found sometimes people get eyestrain with only one or two types of OLED. Also going higher on OLED refresh rate is also beneficial (240Hz / upcoming 480Hz) even for casual computer users / gaming.

Many people have gotten eyestrain on many model after model, but if this is your first unit, just try rolling the dice again to a different backlight technology + PWM free, or if you want to stick to OLED, test out WOLED vs QD-OLED, while also going to a higher PPI and turning off ClearType/etc. Some people in my audience got eyestrain with both types of desktop OLED, but others got eyestrain with only one of two. Other times it was simply an ultrawide-induced problem (issue occured with both LCD and OLED ultrawide) due to large FOV covered by display.

Oh yes, it is possible you might want to go back to LCD though, but you might have fallen in love with OLED, and at least there's multiple kinds of OLEDs (including OLEDs your eyes were comfortable with, as you've already said). So there's hope in that department instead of the other parrots.

I urge you to check your font size to see if it is too small: in the browser, in applications, it may be worth increasing the font for a 34-inch monitor, especially if you read a lot. Also look at the text on the video screen (YouTube or Twitch - when the browser page is not in full screen), sometimes you need to reduce or enlarge the page so that the text / video is as clear as possible. I encountered this this month when I changed the font to Times New Roman and size 16, the default was larger and a different font, I don’t remember which one or how many exactly, in the chrome browser. At that moment, everything seemed fine to me, but after a while, eye strain appeared. I didn’t immediately realize that this was a small font. I installed Arial and size 22-24 became better.

Hello again! I returned the Alienware AW3423DWF and bought LG34GN850-B. My eyes stopped hurting.
It is a 34 inch ultrawide, but it's an IPS screen. I'm using it at 144Hz and 10bit color and it's all good.

I compared the graph for the backlight flicker from RTINGS with the one from AW3423DWF and the LG does seem flicker free: the graph is a straight line with just some slight noise, contrary to Alienware's which had like a 5% drop in brightness with each frame.

Perhaps this was the reason why I had the eye strain with the Alienware? Also, I am glad that the IPS is ok after reading many negative reviews about the nano IPS strain. I guess my eyes can tolerate nano IPS quite well.

Those small lines you see are called PWM, it is how OLEDs refresh the screen in correspondence to the refresh rate.
for example here is an oled switch it has the exact same thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CIb7gXIPSk
here is a phone which has it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUmveMSfdXA

Now here is a graph that measure this flicker pwm sensitivity to eyestrain, orange = possibility, red = bad from IEEE Std 1789TM-2015 page 33 or 39 or something i cant remember, however this image is the one I measured from LG's WOLED, first you measure the black bar width % compared the the normal clear area till the next, this is called the "modulation depth %" you then have to time the camera framerate in real time to get the frequency of the modulation on the screen, you then apply this value to the graph, most oleds in phones are around 240hz 10% minimum modulation and fall in the red area which is very bad, BOE are developing 1900hz oled modulation refresh panels for phones to remove this eye strain migraine issue however for pc monitors and the rest we are stuck with the poor quality 240hz eye strain, about 10% of the population experience this eye strain and migraines from the red/orange areas from the general population, you and I are some of them.

https://imgur.com/a/DyVCU96

The IEEE Std 1789TM-2015 states that this PWM frequency should be above 3000 hz to avoid eye strain and migraines.

Update got new qdoled e2 msi version, above 70 brightness is eye strain to some degree, 2-3 days later no pain at all, possibly due to brain habituation training from exposure, or rather priority cause for strain was in this order :
1. blue light level (far higher in old woled)
2. brightness level too high.
3. then 240hz artificial dc dimming algorhythm removed through brain habituation.

dont give OLED up, use habituation, use qdoled for no white subpixel and even rgb spectrometer wavelength amounts

Edit: squinting due to woled pixel layout could be an issue between 2/3 , qdoled triangle is easier on the eyes squinting wise, squinting all the time causes eye pain.