Blur Busters Forums

Hello, help me figure out my sensitivity. I am 40 years, don’t have any major eye troubles. Just not 100% and probably astigmatism
I did not have any kind of issues playing 24/7 console or computer, in dark room, light room, with full brightness, low brightness, reading texts, siting very close to screen, sitting far \ in bad position. I did not do any rest or eye gymnastic and had no idea why sometime can’t long time in front of PC.
My first display was Samsung CRT 17-inch Shadow mask screen, I used 30% brightness, 100% when playing. Also I did not use ClearType. 85, 100, 120hz everything was fine.
Randomly I used different displays at friends
Problems started after I bought most fancy 21 inch pro NEC / Mitsubishi aperture displays. It was nightmare to watch after like 1h, I started to see pixels running on white background. I tested everything – changed lots of models, brightness etc. I gave up and took *VA displays which seemed OK. Also at that time I had some shitty TN which is hated, but they did not give eye strain.

After a while I figured out that my problem was aperture grill. I quickly bought EIZO 21 inch shadow mask display and I felt like watching to Eizo was nicer than watching to environment.
Also I had glance sony vaio 1366 resolution which was fine at time of my CRT
In 2017 I had to use laptop instead of CRT, took 1080p HP IPS which was fine
2019 HP Elitebook 850 G5 IPS 4k = same as 1080p – fine
At this point we bought 360 HZ Asus TN display for my wife – she started describe same symptoms which I had from aperture grill and she never had any kind of sensitivities, I did not test myself.
In 2022 I bought macbook M1 and quickly got bad symptoms I had many-many years ago, get rid of it after 1 week
Took ASUS GX703HS-KF096R 4k 120hz – after macbook it was very good, but I felt it’s a little worse than HP. Also after disaster with macbook eyes needed some time to relax. Still use it.

Took recently ASUS ROG GX703HS-KF096R – OLED 240HZ (use 100% brightness to make it flicker free) and it looks like display is giving me light headaches, pressure on eyes, tiredness. (really wanted it because of low latency)

Also I got Iphone 13 pro with OLED, which not giving me much troubles but im a bit suspicions about it

What I noticed:
1) Brightness (or room light)
Not important if display is good, if display bad playing with it give you a placebo for sometime
2) Eye care / night mode
Not important – used HP 4k without any kind of blue light deductions for many years, then with night mode – did not notice less strain on eyes, just a good memories of good old shadow mask display
3) PWM – I am not sure if it really affects me
4) IPS refresh rate – I think does not really matter 120 or 60. Hard to figure out of sure.
5) Cleartype / text quality, angles, latency, refresh rate – looks like only about user experience but about pressure on your eyes or head
6) Matt or glance – probably not important


And here is my personal rating from good to bad – only about
1) Samsung \ Eizo \ Any shadowmask CRM – perfect, better than watching nature
2) 60hz 1080p / 4k IPS on my HP laptops – never had problems (same to sony vaio glance laptop which probably had TN)
3) ASUS ROG GX703HS-KF096R 4k 120hz – used for many years, maybe worse than #2, but still was fine to use
4) ASUS ROG Zephyrus G16 GA605WV-QR025W – OLED 240HZ – still testing but it looks like not possible to use it than just several times (gives tiredness, slight headache)
5) Apple 2022 Macbook M1 – total crash – same as №4 but much faster + eyes getting warm. Not usable
6) Aperture grill expensive from CRTs – nightmare – like №5 but with even hotter eyes etc.

And overall after bad screen sleep does not help. I need several days recover period to get rid of symptoms without touching crap display.
What I think is important for me – matrix\technology type + backlight tech.
For now, I think is the best solution is to avoid OLED and use IPS 4k 120hz panels, probably with some special backlight type if there is a chose. Also trying to avoid all known bad tech which some people got troubles
Please let me know if you familiar with my sensitivities and know more clear answer what to avoid.

Alexander666 wrote: ↑

20 Dec 2024, 06:01

And here is my personal rating from good to bad – only about
1) Samsung \ Eizo \ Any shadowmask CRM – perfect, better than watching nature
2) 60hz 1080p / 4k IPS on my HP laptops – never had problems (same to sony vaio glance laptop which probably had TN)
3) ASUS ROG GX703HS-KF096R 4k 120hz – used for many years, maybe worse than #2, but still was fine to use
4) ASUS ROG Zephyrus G16 GA605WV-QR025W – OLED 240HZ – still testing but it looks like not possible to use it than just several times (gives tiredness, slight headache)
5) Apple 2022 Macbook M1 – total crash – same as №4 but much faster + eyes getting warm. Not usable
6) Aperture grill expensive from CRTs – nightmare – like №5 but with even hotter eyes etc.

Very detailed response!
It's interesting that you've noted a eye comfort difference between different CRT tube technology types, thank you for these insights.

The general rule of thumb is, all living beings are sensitive to flicker
As to what I can recommend you, it does read to me that you're experiencing that exact sensitivity.
What makes me think that are the following lines:

"In 2022 I bought macbook M1 and quickly got bad symptoms I had many-many years ago, get rid of it after 1 week"

Depending on which Macbook you've bought, you could've got the one with the very low PWM backlight dimming frequency.
You can verify which model by visiting this filter query

Now, how sensitive you are to flicker, is vague to me due to the following sentence:

"Took recently ASUS ROG GX703HS-KF096R – OLED 240HZ (use 100% brightness to make it flicker free) and it looks like display is giving me light headaches, pressure on eyes, tiredness. (really wanted it because of low latency)"

"Also I got Iphone 13 pro with OLED, which not giving me much troubles but im a bit suspicions about it"

My immediate assumption is that you're sensitive to any multi-strobe behavior (PWM dimming, even +10kHz), but not single-strobe (CRT strobing).
But this falls down the water since OLED at 100% brightness is "single-strobe" (doesn't fully turn off, but ~25% brightness drop only)
This quote reminds me of my sensitivities with OLED displays when I use dark mode on them in particular.
It's due to the brightness drop every refresh cycle (haven't been able to find the root cause of this, the technological aspect that is)
Light mode triggers it for me to a lesser degree than dark mode however.

A thing you could try is messing with the gamma curve (to lighten darker shades of gray) on OLED displays, to dampen the flicker somewhat. Your mileage may vary with this though.

You're on the right track in terms of sticking to LCD, if you've got these OLED symptoms above, as LCD is a safer option for humans.
I'd recommend trying to go for a 16" 2560x1600 240Hz laptop if you want a smaller form-factor display and you care about refresh rate.
I personally find <200Hz displays to be blurry, even during browsing.

As for desktop displays, is there a particular budget class you'd go for?
I always recommend 24" QHD, 32" 4k & 27" 4k at minimum in terms of pixel density, as less than that tends to be pixelated at usual desktop viewing distances.

I did not write in the first post, but I think I hate trading malls, maybe because of shitty led lighting. It makes me tied fast and wanting leave.
Also, I not only want to figure personal intolerances but overall crap modern hardware. It is like with food – I want to avoid garbage, even if it does not bother me personally
Also, I don’t want use external display, since I use laptops for now, just want to fully understand what is better to choose and buy
Also, I don’t know which settings is better for eyes
Color gamut (ASUS eyecare is turned ON)
1) Native default vivid colors
2) DCI-p3
3) Display P3
4) sRGB (for some reason it is gone from setting)

I double check exact models which I had
1) Apple MacBook Pro 16 2021 M1 Pro
Display
16.20 inch 16:10, 3456 x 2234 pixel 254 PPI, Liquid Retina XDR, Mini-LED, glossy: yes, HDR, 120 Hz
PWM Frequency 14880
It felt closer to aperture grill, then to OLED
It gave me
a) Hot eyes
b) Tiredness / slight headache / misty view
Conclusion
1) PWM 15kHz = bad for sure
2) Glace vs Matte – what is bigger problem for most people?
My experience
a) glossy Macbook = trash
b) glossy Sony Vaio OLD = no problem
c) glossy OLED = not good
d) Matte HP = best
e) Matte Asus = good
3) Mini-LED – probably another bad spot

2) Ноутбук HP Envy 15-as000ur Core i5 6200U/4Gb/SSD128Gb/Intel HD Graphics/15.6"/FHD (1920x1080)/Windows 10/silver/WiFi/BT/Cam
I can’t fine any info online about PWM, I do remember it was matte IPS. Also, I don’t know which kind of backlight used
I did not remember I had aperture grill problem when I bought it. So it did not bother me at all

3) HP Elitebook 850 G5, PeodID 3JX51EA#ACB
15.6" 4K IPS Anti-Glare LED-backlit

Also, after purchase I did not keep in mind any old eye strain problems.
I can’t fine any info online about PWM

4) ASUS ROG Zephyrus S17 GX703HS-KF096R (90NR06F1-M02320)
UHD 3840 x 2160 px IPS, 120 Hz 3ms with 100% DCI-P3 and sRGB, with AdaptiveSync
ultrabookreview com/46804-asus-rog-zephyrus-s17-gx703/
PWM: No.

And again – I used it for long time, but I am not sure if it is as good as 2 or 3. It could be 2 reasons why I disliked it. Also I can’t find exact supplier of the screen
a) It was bought it after 7-days macbook tests = eyes where not recovered so I did not like it so much at beginning
b) I used it sometimes for gaming, HP had no video card, so I never used. Probably gaming undercover some weak sides of IPS

5) Asus ROG Zephyrus G16 GA605WV
Display
16.00 inch 16:10, 2560 x 1600 pixel 189 PPI, ATNA60DL04-0, OLED, glossy: yes, HDR, 240 Hz
notebookcheck /Asus-ROG-Zephyrus-G16-2024-review-The-slim-gaming-laptop-now-with-AMD-Zen-5.877382.0.html

Another configuration but same screen:
notebookcheck /Asus-ROG-Zephyrus-G16-2024-review-The-gaming-laptop-now-with-G-Sync-OLED-and-Intel-Meteor-Lake.800175.0.html
Screen flickering / PWM detected 960 Hz

at brightness levels over 60 %, it makes use of less-harmful DC dimming (at 240 Hz)
So I use 60+, even to say 100. Not a nightmare like macbook, or aperture grill, but I still feel something wrong – not hard on eyes but getting tied. And it is the reason I came back to forum and started research again.

So for now what I should look:
1) Only fully no PWM laptops
2) Matte vs Glossy?
3) Refresh rate (Of course I like more – but which is better for most users by reports)
4) IPS / VA / TN / OLED / Any other type
5) Backlight type?
6) Any special display suppliers are known to be good?
7) Anything more I have to look at?

At this point my own answers
1) No pwm
2) Matte, but all modern good screens are matte
3) 60Hz and 120Hz good on legit displays for sure. Going higher – no idea
4) IPS is lowest bad experience for me
5) Don’t really know and I think I got no choice
6) Don’t really think there are much choice if you take IPS, 4k 120hz+
7) Don’t buy new model of screen, wait for some time, google to see bad reports, reason and solution

And if oled is bad for me, I think better change ipfone to something else, but choices are also limited if pick on IPS screen.
P.S. all idea behind oled was waiting this type of screen with 120hz+ from CRT era, because of lower than LCD response times.
P.S. CRT shadowmask was
1) Very blurry especially on corners
2) Blurry on higher than 120hz+ refresh rates
3) Not so good at higher than 1024+ resolutions even in windows even on 21 inch screen
4) 100% contrast always
5) Even 100% brightness not a killer
6) It had flicker (one strobe type as I understood from forum)
Zero problems with health

I tried to look for modern IPS models, and choice is not big:
I set
1) Firstly arrived = 2024
2) = IPS
3) = 120hz+
4) 4k+
5) Matte screen (quickly found that they are better for eyes)

All laptops got 3840x2400 instead of regular 4k, all of them got mini-led, but HP unknown
16 inch =
HP ZBook Studio 16 (no info about mini led) PWM = 0
Razer Blade 16 (2023) - UHD+/120Hz/FHD+/240Hz, (mini-led 240hz on low res) (Got PWM, while model with 4k and without mini led had 0 PWM

17 inch =
Schenker KEY 17 Pro 3840x2160 (4K UHD) = 144hz (the only 4k, probably other type of display) = no PWM
18 inch =
Razer Blade 18 (2024) (no info about mini led, different refresh rate = 200Hz) (got PWM)
MSI Stealth 18 (no info) (I suspect PWM)
MSI Titan (got PWM)
MSI CreatorPro X18 (I suspect PWM)

So it’s basically HP Zbook vs Schenker KEY


So, questions:
1) Are any of these laptops good for eyes?
2) 16 vs 18 ?
3) Mini led vs no mini led (Google says mini led better, but what i found on notebookcheck - that are no PWM free mini leds)
4) Or just stick to 4k ASUS until something better arrive

P.s. I did not check if ther are PWM free, but suspect so
geizhalseu/?cat=nb&xf=11609_38402160%7E11609_38402400%7E17291_120%7E19914_matt%7E3310_2024%7E83_IPS (list of all filter, german marketplace)

Alexander666 wrote: ↑

21 Dec 2024, 10:55

So, questions:
1) Are any of these laptops good for eyes?
2) 16 vs 18 ?
3) Mini led vs no mini led (Google says mini led better, but what i found on notebookcheck - that are no PWM free mini leds)
4) Or just stick to 4k ASUS until something better arrive

My personal recommendation for most is sticking to either 16" 2560x1600 240hz or 16" - 18" 3840x2400 120hz, while avoiding mini-LED like the plague.
Why?
Because Mini-LED has extreme flicker which hasn't been resolved yet on both laptop & desktop market.
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?s ... 1641970322 (the actual news article doesn't specifically address it's due to flicker, but it's interesting that a CEO claims this)


As to why I recommend these 2 combinations above, it is because:
1.) The former's refresh rate is a nice clarity boost for overall usage (480hz is when motion clarity starts getting decent)
2.) 4K PPI/PPD on laptop is, in my personal opinion, the absolute minimum most people who do text-heavy work should opt for when purchasing a new laptop

As for the display backlight used today, take a look at this post:
https://pcmonitors.info/articles/the-ev ... acklights/

I'm personally a fan of Asus laptops due to the existence of G-Helper and Omen laptops (such as the 16 2023 or Transcend, the latter is 16:10) due to their TKL-style laptop keyboards.
Do keep in mind there's more nuance to a laptop purchase than just display (Cooling, DGPU, CPU, RAM, BIOS, WiFi, ports,...)

General rule of thumb is:
- Avoid flicker as much as possible (LED Light bulbs, desktop/laptop/phone/watch displays) in every day life
- Minimising usage of displays in pitch-black rooms (and not going for very high brightness values, 100-200 nits is plenty)
- Trying to lower blue-light exposure at night (for optimal melatonin production) as much as possible.
- If one has spotted a sensitivity with newer backlight coatings (KSF/PFS, QD), trying to find a (YAG) older style or even a different tech (CCFL)
- Trying to maintain a decent PPD & usable refresh rate (at minimum 120hz), hard to chase both for now due to a few technological limitations. For example: 24" QHD, 32" 4K, 27" 4K & better (if desktop displays) or 14-16" QHD @ 240Hz & 14-18" 4K @ 120hz if laptop.

As for phones and how you could avoid issues, try using light mode on your IPhone as much as possible and trying to lighten up dark shades on it somehow ("adjusting gamma")
I personally don't know how to do this, so you'd have to do your own research.

If you cannot find a way to dampen the effects with the method above, try going for a LCD smartphone such as the Motorola G100, Samsung A23 5G or something akin to these.
If possible, try find a smartphone that has a fixed refresh rate (not forced variable refresh rate, that can contribute to small oscillation issues too)

Hope this helps you somewhat, as you've tackled a lot of points in your 2 posts here.
You can take a look at other topics in this subforum, where I've talked about this topic to other members.

My personal recommendation for most is sticking to either 16" 2560x1600 240hz or 16" - 18" 3840x2400 120hz, while avoiding mini-LED like the plague.

I tried both 15 inch 1024 x 768, 1080p and 4k
Also 17 inch 4k

There is no difference for me. It is only about image quality, windows scaling.
2560x1600 240hz - that what i got now on an OLED laptop, resolution, refresh rate is fine.

Since OLED did not work for me, i have basically two option

HP ZBook Studio 16 G10 Display: 16", 3840x2400, 16:10, 283ppi, 120Hz, non-glare (matt), IPS, 500cd/m², 100% DCI-P3
Schenker KEY 17 Pro M24btn Display: 17.3", 3840x2160 (4K UHD), 16:9, 255ppi, 144Hz, non-glare (matt), IPS, 400cd/m², NVIDIA G-Sync, 99% sRGB, 99% DCI-P3
Option 3 just keep 4k 120hz asus…

It is not about screen size or slight difference in resolution, i try to figure out - what are models of displays used in these two and which one easier for eyes

As to why I recommend these 2 combinations above, it is because:
1.) The former's refresh rate is a nice clarity boost for overall usage (480hz is when motion clarity starts getting decent)

My HP laptop with 4k 60hz does not have a separate GPU, it has inbuilt intel which can’t handle 4k in windows and lags hard. Feels like 20-30 fps. Looks awful, but zero eye strain.

Also I suspect lower refresh rate settings / displays are better for eyes, but because of the rate itself, but probably because hardware pushed harder and generates some jitter / bad vcom or something else. When I tried to fix the apple I felt like lower HZ was a little better, but could be just placebo. Also my wife used reduced rate on 360HZ display and felt it was better. And she used a PC only for gaming and still her choice was lower Hz. But it could be a placebo also, when eyes hurt it is not possible to do proper tests.

And again about screen size - i got a personal not proved feeling that small = better.

Do keep in mind there's more nuance to a laptop purchase than just display (Cooling, DGPU, CPU, RAM, BIOS, WiFi, ports,...)

General rule of thumb is:
- Avoid flicker as much as possible (LED Light bulbs, desktop/laptop/phone/watch displays) in everyday life
- Minimising usage of displays in pitch-black rooms (and not going for very high brightness values, 100-200 nits is plenty)

I dont really think i care about hardware if i cant use it, if you mean quallity / performance by hardware. Because it can mean eye strain also as written below. But i think im fine with every hardware for now, or at least i got no bad experience myself




I found on other forum from guy who struggles from extreme sensitivity (he detects shitty mobos / ram / gpu etc

1) No more than 60/75Hz (I saw a hard vcom in all high-frame rate monitors)

2) Without HDR and excessive brightness (<= 250 nits)

3) Year of manufacture 2014 ... 2020

4) IPS or VA panel does not matter

5) wled backlight without quantum and other technologies of extended coverage, giving sRGB coverage of about 90 ... 100%

6) Monitor coating - very light matte (hard-matte blurs the structure of RGB subpixels and strains the eyes)

7) Almost all monitors are now without low-frequency PWM (> 10 kHz)

8) Almost all monitors have a blue peak at 446 ... 460 nm, this is safe

9) BASIC color temperature - around 6500k, when looking at the monitor there should be no be cold shades

10) DP or HDMI port - does not matter. Both can dither, depending on the EDID settings