Blur Busters Forums

Well,
i have myopia and astygmatism and discovering recently that i have an issue with the "convergence/focusing" with my eyes.
I'm specifying this to give more details, it's simple, with relatively more or less "ok" glasses and with convergence rehabilitation courses with an orthoptist, this screen give me some repetitive headaches, difficulty to pinpoint target on games and difficulty to concentrating and focusing.

This also happens to me when office usage (reading texts, especially on blank pages, etc.) and this happens to me with all panel technologie but i have understood one thing is that it's even worse specifically with IPS, i noticed that i always complained about one thing with ips monitors = the way i perceive the backlight and how my eyes requires forces to focus.

For example, I had a XL2546X for months, a 1080p TN monitor and it give weirdly more comfort (while it's a 1080p TN panel) I tested a lot of things :

1. Put my monitors further away - it doesn't change anything
2. Put them closer - it gets slightly worse
3. Use only VA or only TN or only IPS (always worse with IPS) or OLED - I prefer TN and OLED
4. Lower the settings, change the color profiles, contrast, Overdrive, Strobing OFF/ON - My eyes don't really like strobing/crosstalk.
5. Playing with Sync things or not - Don't change anything
6. Play only with a certain frequency of hertz - Can get worse if i play below 120hz, like a nausea thing

Apart from the fact that I have vision problems that are inherent to me, I have the conclusion that I am allergic to IPS, at least, to those that I have tested and more seriously the one that I have in front of my eyes, the Acer XV272UX 1440p 270hz QD (Quantum Dots)-IPS, only TN and OLED "don't really" give me these issues.

My question is, why?
My orthoptist is an eye specialist but not a screen specialist, she only vaguely understood what I was telling her and told me that i shouldn't spend too much time on screens blah blah blah (that's for sure) but I would like to know the reason, I know there are experts on backlighting here, I've already heard of things like KSF Phospor Red or things like not-so-great backlighting on nano-ips or that kind of thing, if an enthusiast could guide me I would be delighted!

The panel inside my monitor is an AHVA IPS QD AUO Optronics and the reference is M270DAN08.0

I hope i can get answer to this ^^"

Sirius wrote: ↑

29 Dec 2024, 22:05

Apart from the fact that I have vision problems that are inherent to me, I have the conclusion that I am allergic to IPS, at least, to those that I have tested and more seriously the one that I have in front of my eyes, the Acer XV272UX 1440p 270hz QD (Quantum Dots)-IPS

The panel inside my monitor is an AHVA IPS QD AUO Optronics and the reference is M270DAN08.0

The latter part of the sentence is exactly what the problem is.
Most 1440p 240hz VA & IPS LCD's are exclusively KSF/PFS or QD enhanced W-LED backlights
The only notable exception to the rule is the Omen X 27 (27" QHD 240Hz TN), however some of the derivatives of this panel have a KSF W-LED backlight.

W-OLED (QD-OLED has similar reports as you've mentioned) has also been reported to be better for people suffering from (theorised) wide color gamut backlights (KSF/PFS & QD), but the periodic brightness oscillations caused by display scanout can be a issue for some (ymmv with them)

TN's are almost exclusively W-LED (YAG phosphor, to be specific), with E-TN models (540Hz panels) being KSF/PFS (PG248QP) or QD (XL2586X)

2. Put them closer - it gets slightly worse
4. Lower the settings, change the color profiles, contrast, Overdrive, Strobing OFF/ON - My eyes don't really like strobing/crosstalk.
6. Play only with a certain frequency of hertz - Can get worse if i play below 120hz, like a nausea thing

Living things just don't like oscillations of brightness (flicker), it's a common eyestrain culprit.
As for why you're having nausea issues with low refresh rate, it is also a common eyestrain culprit. The persistence of <360Hz is just too low for our eyes.

My recommendation to you would be to search for classic W-LED Backlight displays (YAG phosphor) with good G2G response times, such as:
XL2566X+ (highest refresh rate classic backlight model on the market)
XL2566K or XL2546X+ (latter is faster, as it's a seemingly a rehashed E-TN panel with classic backlight)
Q24G2A (good pixel density + "ok" refresh rate)
27GS75Q (27' QHD 200Hz, milder SPD graph than usual Nano IPS, titled as "4th gen Nano IPS" | Source @ 2:02)

You could also opt for >=240Hz IPS models (avoid the following ones: Acer 390Hz, AW 500Hz, G2524H, S2522HG, XG259CM), if you can cope with usual IPS smear.

If you're feeling brave, you could also try one of the 27" 480Hz WOLED's, such as the LG 27GX790A-B, ASUS PG27AQDP or Sony Inzone M10S
You could also try running black equalizer on them to alleviate the flicker perception on them (darker shades of gray = easier to notice flicker)

kyube wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2024, 10:40

The latter part of the sentence is exactly what the problem is.
Most 1440p 240hz VA & IPS LCD's are exclusively KSF/PFS or QD enhanced W-LED backlights
The only notable exception to the rule is the Omen X 27 (27" QHD 240Hz TN), however some of the derivatives of this panel have a KSF W-LED backlight.

W-OLED (QD-OLED has similar reports as you've mentioned) has also been reported to be better for people suffering from (theorised) wide color gamut backlights (KSF/PFS & QD), but the periodic brightness oscillations caused by display scanout can be a issue for some (ymmv with them)

TN's are almost exclusively W-LED (YAG phosphor, to be specific), with E-TN models (540Hz panels) being KSF/PFS (PG248QP) or QD (XL2586X)

I would like your approval on all this because not everything is 100% clear.
Basically, the problem comes from the KSF/PFS and the QD enhanced W-LED backlights of the IPS that i have tested ?
How am I supposed to know if I have a W-LED or something else on my future monitors? (Panelook.com?)
Anyway I have heard of gamers and users who had these MSI / Alienware 360hz QD-OLED and having headaches.
Fore your last sentence, if the TN uses almost exclusively W-LED and it is similar to my Acer then why do I often feel better on the TN?
it's like gamma/contrast/white are always more "natural" to my eyes, How do you know which monitor is using KSF/W-LED (YAG Phosphor) or not ?

kyube wrote: ↑

31 Dec 2024, 10:40

My recommendation to you would be to search for classic W-LED Backlight displays (YAG phosphor) with good G2G response times, such as:
XL2566X+ (highest refresh rate classic backlight model on the market)
XL2566K or XL2546X+ (latter is faster, as it's a seemingly a rehashed E-TN panel with classic backlight)
Q24G2A (good pixel density + "ok" refresh rate)
27GS75Q (27' QHD 200Hz, milder SPD graph than usual Nano IPS, titled as "4th gen Nano IPS" | Source @ 2:02)

You could also opt for >=240Hz IPS models (avoid the following ones: Acer 390Hz, AW 500Hz, G2524H, S2522HG, XG259CM), if you can cope with usual IPS smear.

How i know that a monitor have "classic W-LED Backlight displays (YAG phosphor)" ?
as for :

1. XL2566X+ = I'm very curious about this one
2. XL2566K = i had 4 and all of them have coil whine, i avoid it.
3. XL2546X+ = Seems ok
4. Q24G2A = I had one, never again (too slow/smaller than traditional 25" Zowie by little but I felt it)
5. 27GS75Q = I don't go below 240hz, sorry

Anyway about your last sentence you said "(avoid the following ones: Acer 390Hz, AW 500Hz, G2524H, S2522HG, XG259CM), if you can cope with usual IPS smear." but why ? i had the two last that you mentionned and I absolutely did not like these 2 for some reasons.
wdym about "IPS Smear" ? (do you have a picture example ?)

Sirius wrote: ↑

02 Jan 2025, 20:15

I would like your approval on all this because not everything is 100% clear.
Basically, the problem comes from the KSF/PFS and the QD enhanced W-LED backlights of the IPS that i have tested ?
How am I supposed to know if I have a W-LED or something else on my future monitors? (Panelook.com?)
Fore your last sentence, if the TN uses almost exclusively W-LED and it is similar to my Acer then why do I often feel better on the TN?
it's like gamma/contrast/white are always more "natural" to my eyes, How do you know which monitor is using KSF/W-LED (YAG Phosphor) or not ?

How i know that a monitor have "classic W-LED Backlight displays (YAG phosphor)" ?
as for :

I don't go below 240hz, sorry
1. XL2566X+ = I'm very curious about this one
3. XL2546X+ = Seems ok
4. Q24G2A = I had one, never again (too slow/smaller than traditional 25" Zowie by little but I felt it)

Anyway about your last sentence you said "(avoid the following ones: Acer 390Hz, AW 500Hz, G2524H, S2522HG, XG259CM), if you can cope with usual IPS smear." but why ? i had the two last that you mentionned and I absolutely did not like these 2 for some reasons.
wdym about "IPS Smear" ? (do you have a picture example ?)

I'm not very sure whether your issue lies in the backlight, it's worth exploring it however as your complaints align with the general symptoms people complain about onilne.
Take a look at this article: https://pcmonitors.info/articles/the-ev ... acklights/ for explanation how the backlights work.

As for how one can find out which panels use the old style of W-LED backlight (called "YAG Phosphor"), you can only rely on 3rd party testing (RTINGS, TFTCentral, Monitors Unboxed...) only.
They are usually panels with DCI-P3 <80% gamut color volume
ON RTINGS' webiste, tick the "Wide Color Gamut" filter to "No" to filter out any KSF/PFS-layer or QD-layer backlight, at least from the models reviewed RTINGS. (link to table tool w/ filter applied: https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tools/table/155121)

Since you seem to be adamant on >240Hz, your options are very slim.
Most 1080p LCD >200Hz displays use the classic backlight, but not all (for example: E-TN panels are KSF/PFS or QD) and a very small set of 1440p displays (2 of which I've mentioned above)
The only outlier I could mention in the 1440p >200Hz LCD category is the OMEN X 27 (which has to be ran at max brightness to avoid PWM flicker brightness dimming)

Otherwise, you can only go WOLED as QD-OLED would likely trigger the same issues you got with your ACER QD LCD already.

To shorten it for you, the best (>200Hz) you can get in each category:
1080p: XL2566X+
1440p LCD: Omen X 27
1440p OLED: PG27AQDP, LG 27GX790A-B, Inzone M10S (none of these can be ran without DSC, I'm assuming the non-DSC variants will hit the market Q1 or Q2 year)

Hope this helps.

kyube wrote: ↑

03 Jan 2025, 06:11

I'm not very sure whether your issue lies in the backlight, it's worth exploring it however as your complaints align with the general symptoms people complain about onilne.
Take a look at this article: https://pcmonitors.info/articles/the-ev ... acklights/ for explanation how the backlights work.

As for how one can find out which panels use the old style of W-LED backlight (called "YAG Phosphor"), you can only rely on 3rd party testing (RTINGS, TFTCentral, Monitors Unboxed...) only.
They are usually panels with DCI-P3 <80% gamut color volume
ON RTINGS' webiste, tick the "Wide Color Gamut" filter to "No" to filter out any KSF/PFS-layer or QD-layer backlight, at least from the models reviewed RTINGS. (link to table tool w/ filter applied: https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tools/table/155121)

Since you seem to be adamant on >240Hz, your options are very slim.
Most 1080p LCD >200Hz displays use the classic backlight, but not all (for example: E-TN panels are KSF/PFS or QD) and a very small set of 1440p displays (2 of which I've mentioned above)
The only outlier I could mention in the 1440p >200Hz LCD category is the OMEN X 27 (which has to be ran at max brightness to avoid PWM flicker brightness dimming)

Otherwise, you can only go WOLED as QD-OLED would likely trigger the same issues you got with your ACER QD LCD already.

To shorten it for you, the best (>200Hz) you can get in each category:
1080p: XL2566X+
1440p LCD: Omen X 27
1440p OLED: PG27AQDP, LG 27GX790A-B, Inzone M10S (none of these can be ran without DSC, I'm assuming the non-DSC variants will hit the market Q1 or Q2 year)

Hope this helps.

As always, Kyube being Kyube, thanks !
The problem with Rtings is that they test fewer and fewer screens and their pace is now very slow.
I'm pretty sure my issue is related with backlight too (including ksf stuff), the hilarious thing is...i love Quantum Dot tech lol
I had the Omen X 27 and i have quickly send it back due to the ultra grainy coating and the weird sharpness setting in it (and i don't very like HP stuff tbh) I didn't find it incredible.

I think that overall you have answered the question, however, I think that you have condensed my concerns into one point but, the people that I have seen complain only say that they have slightly headaches, not problems with convergence and focus with eyes, where did you find that?

You come to the same conclusion as me:

1. Find a good TN that won't hurt my eyes but supporting the fact of playing on a small TN 1080p in 2025 / to counterbalance i would like it to be LOTS of hertz and no coil whine (are you sure that a YAG is a monitor below in DCI-P3? how did you learn this information?)
2. Find a good WOLED with glossy coating below 1000€ (no QD, anyway I hate their reddish side which makes you have a veil if you have a little light in the setup, thanks to Optimum for the examples by the way)

To quickly return to the Omen, I did not know that this one had to be set to 100% brightness to avoid flicker lol, it is even more of a no go because I cannot use screens at 100% brightness.

About your last sentence, why DSC is considered like an horrible thing ? Apart from the fact that it creates a delay (black screen to return to the desktop when alt-tabbing), what harm does it actually do in gaming ?

Bonus question : What monitor did you use ? / what usage ?

Sirius wrote: ↑

03 Jan 2025, 15:10

I'm pretty sure my issue is related with backlight too (including ksf stuff), the hilarious thing is...i love Quantum Dot tech lol
I had the Omen X 27 and i have quickly send it back due to the ultra grainy coating and the weird sharpness setting in it (and i don't very like HP stuff tbh) I didn't find it incredible.
I think that overall you have answered the question, however, I think that you have condensed my concerns into one point but, the people that I have seen complain only say that they have slightly headaches, not problems with convergence and focus with eyes, where did you find that?

I have no clue whether anything I'm recommending you may or may not help you.
It's sadly a matter of trial & error to find the right display.

There could be external factors (health or environmental) contributing to your overall wellbeing, which might have a carry-over to your display ergonomics

When it comes to display variables which could affect you (In no particular order, off the top of my head):
refresh rate, resolution, physical distance to screen, dithering technique employed, W-LED backlight type used (YAG, KSF/PFS, QD), any kind of backlight flicker (multi-strobe PWM, backlight strobing / single-strobe PWM), wide color gamut (this is just a theory for now, no indication as to why or how it happens or whether this is the underlying cause, just anecdotal evidence), brightness, lack of ambient light, contrast ratio (too much can cause irritation for some), coating applied (glossy / heavy matte), subpixel layout, polarizer orientation (vertical, horizontal, circular)

Sirius wrote: ↑

03 Jan 2025, 15:10

You come to the same conclusion as me:
1. Find a good TN that won't hurt my eyes but supporting the fact of playing on a small TN 1080p in 2025 / to counterbalance i would like it to be LOTS of hertz and no coil whine (are you sure that a YAG is a monitor below in DCI-P3? how did you learn this information?)
2. Find a good WOLED with glossy coating below 1000€ (no QD, anyway I hate their reddish side which makes you have a veil if you have a little light in the setup, thanks to Optimum for the examples by the way)

To learn about YAG phosphor, take a look at the PCMonitors article I've sent you above.
Now that you mention your coating preferences, you might have troubles with TN's in this regard as all of them have a heavy matte coating.
WOLED's have glossy variants which might be more up your alley.

Sirius wrote: ↑

03 Jan 2025, 15:10

About your last sentence, why DSC is considered like an horrible thing ? Apart from the fact that it creates a delay (black screen to return to the desktop when alt-tabbing), what harm does it actually do in gaming ?
Bonus question : What monitor did you use ? / what usage ?

DSC is exactly, as you mentioned, an issue due to delayed alt-tab behavior on NVidia GPUs. It's the reason I don't recommend it.
Oh, and the potential of the ""visually lossless"" signal (doesn't mean your eyes cannot notice it subconsciously nor have I seen literature to prove me otherwise) could affect you as well.

There are a lot of things which can contribute, you may look at other topics in this subforum where I've talked about potential issues & causes.

As for my display choice, I'm on the AOC Q24G2A for now.
I'd love going to >360Hz OLED, but I don't want to deal with the small brightness dip (scanout related, ~80nits if max brightness) & non-RGB subpixel layouts.

kyube wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2025, 15:40

To learn about YAG phosphor, take a look at the PCMonitors article I've sent you above.
Now that you mention your coating preferences, you might have troubles with TN's in this regard as all of them have a heavy matte coating.
WOLED's have glossy variants which might be more up your alley.

Thanks !
The matte coating on Zowie are very hard and however i don't hate it, their sharpness implementation settings are really good and the screen are not blurry, it lacks of details for sure but compared to some IPS, sharpness settings here balanced very well with the hard matte coating but i prefer matte over "semi-glossy" which are the worse for me (it's not Glossy at all, a fake matte with some reflection) while simply matte are grainy but without any distraction.
clearly WOLED seems to be the way but I would also try Zowie's 66x in 400hz.

kyube wrote: ↑

04 Jan 2025, 15:40

DSC is exactly, as you mentioned, an issue due to delayed alt-tab behavior on NVidia GPUs. It's the reason I don't recommend it.
Oh, and the potential of the ""visually lossless"" signal (doesn't mean your eyes cannot notice it subconsciously nor have I seen literature to prove me otherwise) could affect you as well.

There are a lot of things which can contribute, you may look at other topics in this subforum where I've talked about potential issues & causes.

As for my display choice, I'm on the AOC Q24G2A for now.
I'd love going to >360Hz OLED, but I don't want to deal with the small brightness dip (scanout related, ~80nits if max brightness) & non-RGB subpixel layouts.

Oh ok, I tried a lot of 1440p 240hz/+ and when there is this famous slow alt-tab thing it is so ANNOYING.

Q24G2A for main ? interesting...(i don't like it at all personally), I can't go below 240hz personally, I have a 60hz OLED TV for single player games and when I'm on my PC I almost only play Apex Legends most of the time and other FPS/office use and i've never going back to 165hz/180hz screens, I feel too much the difference in latency, visuals and it's not good for me.

did you found monitor that works for you? i have probably same problem cause like you and for me its mostly pupil pain but i think i understand your "convergence/focusing with my eyes" problem like noone. i also cant concentrate my eyes to view an image because it gives me horrible pain

OP, did ya find a good monitor in the end for ya?