Experience & Opinion: 240hz displays are blurry

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yehaw
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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by yehaw » 22 Dec 2017, 03:27

darzo wrote:I'm not the one claiming 240hz monitors are not ready for market when you're clearly wrong. I've had a 144hz BenQ, an Asus 165hz 1440, and now an Acer 240hz. Without question the 240hz monitor is the smoothest, without issues at much lower fps. I even tried the Asus 240hz and didn't notice such problems either. Haven't noticed any blur that has me proclaiming 240hz monitors aren't ready for market either. Given my considerable experience as well I would've picked up on the alleged inferiority of my monitor. I'll continue to enjoy playing on my monitor over the other two I've owned while you downgrade.
Well, enjoy your acer. :lol:

I'll return mine and wait a few months for new ones that fix the issue, or better panels are made and released, hopefully something <24".

Edit: New link to Acer blurry complaint, which is the XB252Q 240hz acer.
Last edited by yehaw on 22 Dec 2017, 04:30, edited 4 times in total.

darzo
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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by darzo » 22 Dec 2017, 03:31

That's a review for a 144hz 1440 monitor. ;) Anyway, best of luck.

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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Dec 2017, 11:36

This makes me curious:

Are you seeing blurriness or stutter or both (combined) into one unsmoothness?

I read another forum post someone who exchanged their monitor and the quality changed, so I'm now wondering if there's a quality-inconsistency issue out there.

If you have not returned your monitor yet, are you able to see any unusual blurring issues at the 120fps UFO and 60fps UFO at www.testufo.com that looks much worse than 120Hz and 60Hz respectively? Being able to figure out why this is happening would be help us steer users more easily troubleshoot and fix specific issues, and away from specific kinds of monitor defects.
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yehaw
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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by yehaw » 22 Dec 2017, 17:34

Chief Blur Buster wrote:This makes me curious:

Are you seeing blurriness or stutter or both (combined) into one unsmoothness?

I read another forum post someone who exchanged their monitor and the quality changed, so I'm now wondering if there's a quality-inconsistency issue out there.

If you have not returned your monitor yet, are you able to see any unusual blurring issues at the 120fps UFO and 60fps UFO at http://www.testufo.com that looks much worse than 120Hz and 60Hz respectively? Being able to figure out why this is happening would be help us steer users more easily troubleshoot and fix specific issues, and away from specific kinds of monitor defects.
No stuttering, just everything looks blurry when compared to another 144hz monitor. You know what it looks like? Have you ever seen a sharpness setting on a monitor? Imagine it comes with sharpness 5 set from the factory, then you set it to 0. Everything will become very fuzzy looking. That's what 240hz looks like. On the 240hz, the edges of the little alien are all really soft and fuzzy, where as the AOC 144hz everything is really sharp, even if I downscale to 1080p resolution. I probably would have never even noticed it if I didn't start getting real bad eye strain and looked into it.

As far as the tests, I don't understand. You want me to run 240hz and do a 120/60 fps test, or run 120hz and 60hz alien invasion test?

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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Dec 2017, 17:44

Oh!

It's fuzzy even for stationary images?

If yes for stationary images:
-- Skip the tests
-- Take a photograph of a staitonary image.

Does it get crystal sharp again when you configure to 1080p?

I don't have this problem with any of my 240Hz, so I'm quite interested to diagnose this, but if you've already returned your monitor. How long do you have before you must return it? If you have several days, then I have a few tests I'd like you to try with it? (Or with anyone else having the same problem)
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yehaw
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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by yehaw » 22 Dec 2017, 17:50

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Oh!

It's fuzzy even for stationary images?

If yes for stationary images:
-- Skip the tests
-- Take a photograph of a staitonary image.

Does it get crystal sharp again when you configure to 1080p?

I don't have this problem with any of my 240Hz, so I'm quite interested to diagnose this, but if you've already returned your monitor. How long do you have before you must return it? If you have several days, then I have a few tests I'd like you to try with it? (Or with anyone else having the same problem)
If I take a screenshot of the alien test and then paste in paint, the still aliens look very sharp, so I think it might be related to the overdrive? And yes, I still have it for 2 weeks.

yehaw
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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by yehaw » 22 Dec 2017, 22:10

Ok, I was doing some research and comparing with reviews and I noticed something in the TFT central review of the ASUS 240hz

from the review, images are with normal overdrive
Image

If you look at the overdrive settings, this is exactly what my monitor looks like at 60hz and I think I've discovered the flaw of all these 240hz monitors. If you see 60 and 144 have a serious double image effect like you are drunk and I would bet all 240hz have this issue. It's probably a downside of such high refresh rate that companies try to hide with overdrive. You can even see it a little on the 200hz/240hz if you inspect it, especially 240hz. Maybe I'm crazy, but 200hz looks better than 240hz in this image! 240hz looks more blurry and more
artifact than 200hz.

It almost looks like a dark green outline around everything? Also, look how much blurry the edges on 240hz looks compared to 200hz, almost like everything is thicker or someone put a stroke around them. Look at the inside edge of the alien ship, 240hz has some weird looking blurry artifacts on the inside edges, 200hz doesn't. Ghosting is darker on 240hz (sure enough, i test on alienware, 240hz has more darker ghosting than 200hz, identical to photo). Overlay 2 light colors = 1 dark color, which is probably what is happening, the ghosting being doubled and overlayed. Also, look at the alien plane legs on 240hz and 200hz, on 240 they are thicker from blur. Major flaws! Higher refresh rate should not look worse, it should look better! Now I know why I get eye pain, I'm looking at a double image.

Now compare to current-gen 144/165hz, look how much cleaner overdrive is (from left its off, weak, light, medium, strong):
Look how clean the edges are on light/medium setting, look how thin all the edges are from no blur, zero double blur in the front, zero green artifacts, etc - it just looks 10x more clean.

I know AOC 240hz had really bad overdrive too early on and improved it, but I think these companies haven't perfected overdrive on these 240hz monitors or it is a limitation of the actual panel that cannot be fixed. I mean sure, it looks good enough at 240hz for casual consumers that won't notice, but for me, this is unacceptable for a $450 monitor. What if I drop frames to 80-90, I get this blurry mess, or will the doubling be the same as 240hz?
Last edited by yehaw on 01 Jan 2018, 10:01, edited 7 times in total.

Notty_PT
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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by Notty_PT » 23 Dec 2017, 12:41

yehaw wrote:Ok, I was doing some research and comparing with reviews and I noticed something in the TFT central review of the ASUS 240hz

from the review, images are with normal overdrive
Image

If you look at the overdrive settings, this is exactly what my monitor looks like at 60hz and I think I've discovered the flaw of all these 240hz monitors. If you see 60 and 144 have a serious double image effect like you are drunk and I would bet all 240hz have this issue. It's probably a downside of such high refresh rate that companies try to hide with overdrive. You can even see it a little on the 200hz/240hz if you inspect it, especially 240hz. Maybe I'm crazy, but 200hz looks better than 240hz in this image!

It almost looks like a dark green outline around everything? Also, look how much blurry the edges on 240hz looks compared to 200hz, almost like everything is thicker or someone put a stroke around them. Look at the inside edge of the alien ship, 240hz has some weird looking blurry artifacts on the inside edges, 200hz doesn't. Ghosting is darker on 240hz (sure enough, i test on alienware, 240hz has more darker ghosting than 200hz, identical to photo). Overlay 2 light colors = 1 dark color, which is probably what is happening, the ghosting being doubled and overlayed. Also, look at the alien plane legs on 240hz and 200hz, on 240 they are thicker from blur. Major flaws! Higher refresh rate should not look worse, it should look better! Now I know why I get eye pain, I'm looking at a double image. :lol:

Now compare to current-gen 144/165hz, look how much cleaner overdrive is (from left its off, weak, light, medium, strong):
Look how clean the edges are on light/medium setting, look how thin all the edges are from no blur, zero double blur in the front, zero green artifacts, etc - it just looks 10x more clean
Image

I know AOC 240hz had really bad overdrive too early on and improved it, but I think these companies haven't perfected overdrive on these 240hz monitors or it is a limitation of the actual panel that cannot be fixed. I mean sure, it looks good enough at 240hz for casual consumers that won't notice, but for me, this is unacceptable for a $450 monitor. What if I drop frames to 80-90, I get this blurry mess, or will the doubling be the same as 240hz?

Like I said, these are not ready for market, IMO. If 60hz was just the double image, fine, but 144hz and up? No. I think the next models of 240hz will be good, but nobody should be paying $500 for image that looks blurry because of having double image. Console games at 60hz? You will throw up! Or how about PC games locked to 30 and 60fps? Forget about it, unless you want to ruin your day with horrible eye and headache pain.

I am shocked more people don't notice this! Maybe some are more sensitive than others? Who knows... I would recommend staying away from current gen 240hz monitors.
My friend I did notice this and other problems with these 240hz monitors. But I was completly bashed and attacked on most forums because of it so I gave up. You can see some of it on this link, be sure to grab some popcorn, look at my arguments against those guys that can´t accept they paid 500€ for a product that isn´t that great: http://www.overclock.net/t/1608085/asus ... t_26514185

This first gen of 240hz are totally NOT WORTH IT. They are awful at anything below 240hz be it ghosting or input lag. If you try to connect a console to these monitors you will be shocked, it is laggy with 16ms input lag (same as many TVs in 2017) and the overshoot and pixel response time is really bad.

The average lag of these monitors at 240hz is 3,7ms to 4,5ms, well that´s only a 1ms lower than a good and fast 144hz monitor that usually has 4ms to 5ms input lag at 144hz (LG 24GM79, Asus MG248Q, Asus VG248QE for example).

These 240hz monitors should have 2,5ms input lag at 240hz to be in line with the input lag of the current best 144hz monitors, not 4,5ms. You are paying double the money for a screen with 1ms input lag advantage and a bit better motion clarity providing you can sustain locked 240fps on every game (wich as we know won´t happen).

The response time is another problem wich every reviewer showed, they are slower. Yes at 240hz you can´t notice that problem as much but you still can notice it specially on framerate dips.

Like I said countless times, better wait for proper 240hz panels and let the technology mature. This first gen is not that good, just like the first 120hz gen wasn´t that good with PWM flicker problems and poor response times even on TN panels. Also can add the fact imo 25inch 1080p is too big for that resolution and too big for competitive gaming to focus on everything properly.

So I fully get your point and I´m glad I´m not the only one that noticed these problems. I didn´t keep a single 240hz screen. Kept my 144hz monitors and will only get 240hz when they mature.

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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 23 Dec 2017, 13:31

Notty_PT wrote:If you look at the overdrive settings, this is exactly what my monitor looks like at 60hz and I think I've discovered the flaw of all these 240hz monitors. If you see 60 and 144 have a serious double image effect like you are drunk and I would bet all 240hz have this issue.
Not all 240Hz monitors has this issue.

The very same site, TFTCentral confirms this:

Image

See? Both 240Hz.
But in the left image
-- You can identify the black lines in the UFO better
-- The alien's eyes are much more distinct.
-- The UFO landing legs are much clearer.
-- The UFO's steering stick is much clearer.

The best 240Hz monitor has much clearer motion than the worst 240Hz.
The left image is what I see at 240 Hz.

The ViewSonic XG2530 and Acer XB252Q (at least the BlurBusters samples) looks closer to like the one at the left, and is significantly clearer than all my 144Hz monitors (including my BenQ's, Asus's, etc).

That said, I am VERY interested to understand *why* the inconsistency is appearing. We might be seeing a panel lottery issue, that needs larger amount of 240Hz purchases to verify.

Also another (unconfirmed) anecdote -- one reader posted several weeks ago they returned their 240Hz and got a replacement 240Hz monitor (of the same brand) that was apparently much better looking. This will need to be corroborated with more additional user reports.
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Re: 240hz displays are blurry

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 23 Dec 2017, 13:44

Chief Blur Buster wrote:The average lag of these monitors at 240hz is 3,7ms to 4,5ms, well that´s only a 1ms lower than a good and fast 144hz monitor that usually has 4ms to 5ms input lag at 144hz (LG 24GM79, Asus MG248Q, Asus VG248QE for example).
When it comes to real world CS:GO tests, to input lag ranges, MIN/AVG/MAX, the lag difference becomes bigger.

For example, see the 1000fps VSYNC OFF (of Jorim's GSYNC101 tests) for 60Hz vs 144Hz vs 240Hz.

Currently 1000fps CS:GO VSYNC OFF via high speed camera (true button-to-pixels test)

MIN/AVG/MAX, for 1000fps VSYNC OFF, from 40 passes in CS:GO
60 Hz = 14ms, 21ms, 27ms (13ms lag-randomziation factor)
100 Hz = 14ms, 17ms, 21ms (7ms lag-randomization factor)
120 Hz = 12ms, 16ms, 19ms (7ms lag-randomization factor)
144 Hz = 12ms, 15ms, 18ms (6ms lag-randomization factor)
240 Hz = 12ms, 14ms, 16ms (4ms lag-randomization factor)

Here's an animated gif that compares lag spreads for 60Hz and 240Hz on the same monitor. The 1000fps VSYNC OFF test is the second last set of 3 bars near the bottom of the graph.

For 144Hz vs 240Hz -- while average is only ~1ms-1.5ms difference, the lag spread reduces by twice the average from 4.1ms scanout versus 6.9ms scanout (~2.8ms lag-spread from pure mathematics, ~2ms from 40-passes of real world lag test)

Lag randomization affects aiming to the point of (aiming speed in pixels/sec * lag). Mathematically, when doing fast-flick turns at 5000 pixels/second (along the screen surface) while trying to visually time the stop-your-turn-with-crosshairs-on-enemy. 6ms lag-randomness means , 5000 x 0.006 = 30 pixel range of overshoot/undershoot error. 4ms lag-randomness means 5000 x 0.004 = 20 pixel range of overshoot/undershoot error. If you turn slower, this is less important, but many eSports players flick faster than 5000 pixels/second to essentially stop their flick to land their crosshairs on an enemy.... Or if you're taking your time to visually aim, say, 3000 pixels/sec, it's till a significant improvement to play on a (good sample) of a 240Hz monitor. Lower lag randomization means less time spent doing back-and-fourth aiming corrections. So even if you can't "feel" the lag directly, it manifests itself as marginally increased aiming errors. In this case, even 480Hz and 1000Hz monitors makes a hell of a lot of sense eventually (once they're better quality than today's 144Hz monitors) since those can reduce lag-randomization to practically nil.

Now that said, if the 240Hz monitor is unexpectedly crappy (adds more blur than it should have!), then yes... but see, above, I've got pretty clear-looking 240Hz vastly superior to 144Hz. Somehow, some 240Hz monitors are much blurrier than others, and one user fixed it in an exchange -- and now we need to figure out if this is a one-off thing, or a brand-specific thing.

Lag-randomness error is bigger for framerates under 1000fps, so this is an extreme test that actually lowers lag spreads as much as possible. In reality, the lag-randomization is 6.9ms for 144Hz and 4.1ms(1/240) for 240Hz.

Lag-randomization is because of random locations of VSYNC OFF tearlines. Standard lag tests don't generally handle cover this! Lag randomization range always shrinks at higher Hz, due to the mathematical frequency between screen refresh opportunities.

However, lag spreads is always roughly one refresh cycle, because sometimes an enemy appears shortly before scanout hits a tearline. Or shortly after scanout hits a tearline. In high speed video a monitor is scanning out from top-to-bottom, and by chance, a tearline might appear right above crosshairs or right below crosshairs. (Or likewise, a specific enemy anywhere on the screen -- tearline locations are uncontrolled). This penalizes you with a random lag of (0 ... refresh cycle length) added above-and-beyond monitor's processing lag.

This is from "first-anything-on-screen-reaction" criteria (high speed camera, peripheral vision) rather than "first-single-point-on-screen-reaction" criteria (Leo Bodnar, photodiode oscilloscope, etc) and VBI stopwatches (cable dongle on screen, or Leo Bodnar device). Sometimes the "first-anything-on-screen" lag-stopwatching criteria is sometimes more important for real-world lag, like playing eSports games and using your peripheral vision to spot enemies, since different parts of screen refreshes sooner than others...

Alas, there are many ways to measure lag, and they output different lag-spreads and lag-comparision numbers.
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