100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

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JimmyJimmyBTM
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by JimmyJimmyBTM » 26 Dec 2019, 10:34

jorimt wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 13:22
JimmyJimmyBTM wrote:
16 Dec 2019, 12:48
And for me it happens almost every round, even happens on the main menu where the engine is rendering a 3D scene with 2 character models and a background with some props.
Have you been able to time the intervals on the main menu, or do the occurrences not have a discernible pattern?
Sorry for the late reply, It doesn't seem to have a pattern. It also seems to happen more often in BFV but that might just be bad optimization from the game.

JimmyJimmyBTM
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by JimmyJimmyBTM » 14 Feb 2020, 13:31

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
11 Dec 2019, 14:09
Note about power noise: Power noise can be a cause, but there are usually easier lower-lying apple causes. Power noise induced frametime spikes is a devilishly HARD troubleshoot. Troubleshoot with easier tests that are lower-lying apples.



Hey sorry for bumping an old thread, but I have tried everything except an ups.
Today I tested 2 pc's running the same game offline and the spikes occured at the same time. Only 1 or 2 seconds apart from eachother on both pc's. Since the spikes happen at the same time I assume it is indeed the power in this house.

Do you know a good ups that I can buy for a 850w pc.
I live in the netherlands so I would have to have a brand that is available in Europe.

Also can you put a belkin surge protector in an ups or is that a bad thing?

camaoyba
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by camaoyba » 14 Feb 2020, 15:11

I have a similar setup (9700K + Asrock Z390) and I had stuttering/FPS spikes but mine happened when I moved the mouse. Something related to the mouse polling rate, changing it to 125hz would fix it. Then, someone posted that the fix was to disable C-States in BIOS and It worked.

I think your problem is totally different... just wanted to share lol.

JimmyJimmyBTM
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by JimmyJimmyBTM » 17 Feb 2020, 11:12

Calypto wrote:
12 Dec 2019, 14:59
I doubt power is going to cause 100+ ms stalls. Not impossible, but unlikely. I would first rule out BIOS power-saving options or Windows misconfiguration. You seem to be running a newer version of Windows, but all of the recent builds have been progressively getting worse. Did you run Latencymon while playing the game?
Turns out it is my solar panels :O!! They give updates to the power company with modbus through my power net instead of ethernet and this is what has been causing 100ms frametime spikes!

A lot of people have frametime spikes and I hope that those who indeed have a power problem read this thread before they buy a whole new pc like me xD

I unplugged everything except my pc and switched off the controller of my solar panels. I tested siege for an hour and the spikes were finally gone!
Turned on the solar panels and they came right back.

Sometimes it can also be your boiler or however that is called.

So in short, everytime my solar panels sends an update through my power cables it disrupts the sinus wave and causes huge spikes that can result in frametime spikes, or worse.

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RealNC
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by RealNC » 17 Feb 2020, 11:25

JimmyJimmyBTM wrote:
17 Feb 2020, 11:12
I unplugged everything except my pc and switched off the controller of my solar panels. I tested siege for an hour and the spikes were finally gone!
You should probably get a UPS that provides constant stable power regardless of what your solar panels are doing.
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » Yesterday, 21:14

JimmyJimmyBTM wrote:
17 Feb 2020, 11:12
So in short, everytime my solar panels sends an update through my power cables it disrupts the sinus wave and causes huge spikes that can result in frametime spikes, or worse.
First, congratulations on tracing your frametime spikes to power issues. A complex home electricity system, is a 21st century problem -- solar panel installations -- rube-goldberging its way to a 100ms frametime spike? Who'd thought. Even though very rare, you're not the first. It makes sense, since the science checks out fully and it does definitely happen from time to time...Just extremely difficult to confirm without purchasing power-analysis tools and untold number of hours of research.

P.S. In forums, I would not use the word "update" (it confuses a few), but use the phrase "solar panels sends a power disruption" (which may include interference, surges, etc). Your electrician may have used the word "power update", but that is a bit terminologically confusing.

Scientifically, it is more probably a plain power disruption (power switching), like either
(A) Momentary distortion to sinewave as the power switches between power sources (solar / battery / main grid); and/or
(B) Radio-frequency interference (RFI).

You might have sinewave distortions everytime your AC power source switches (as the clouds go over your house, the solar panel inverter switches to your utility grid and then back); i.e. the sinewave don't line up during the changeovers -- and the sinewave might not be true sinewave (more like rounded squarewave in the worst-case) -- you might have to deal with that, some computer power supplies don't work well with those. Other times, it's not the dirty power waveform (imperfect sine wave isn't the issue), but RFI over the power (interference), like a surge of radio frequency that matches the frequency of one of your computer components, temporarily jamming it up (Error correcting stall).

but in reality it's a power changeover

A great computer power supply will merrily gobble up this distorted wave, but not all of them do. And that's only one moat of protection, you really need multiple moats of power protection -- like a real data centre. Solar isn't inherently bad (Google and Facebook data centers are often solar powered anyway) but you do need to up your power conditioning game, be careful of cheap solar inverters!

Given sufficient power interference injected into a computer -- that filters through -- it will wreak havoc to all the error correction layers inside a PC -- including all buses & controllers, whether SATA or RAM or PCI-Express or network cables, or all the above, etc.

In the past, your computer simply crashed but today, sometimes it just stalls briefly (for milliseconds to hundreds of milliseconds) as the error correction layers does its own thing.

Error Correction is a common feature of many computer protocols that simply tells the other device to repeat. For example, data got corrupted, error correction detects it, and says "whoa, please repeat that data", and then good data comes. A modern computer is error corrected to the hilt -- error correction is built into a lot of protocols, network protocols, Internet protocols (The last letter in both TCP/IP is "Protocol!"), hard disk SATA protocols, M.2 flash drive protocols, USB protocols, WiFi network protocols, you name it -- there are hundreds more error corrected chains in a modern computer than a 1980s-early 1990s computer. It's a good thing when a computer doesn't crash, or display corrupted data, or writes corrupted data to disk. But it does briefly stall -- a momentary freeze in a component -- that can lead to freezes and latency spikes even for LAN gaming.

Computer merrily keeps working, but may simply delayed a few microseconds, or milliseconds, or even hundreds of milliseconds (yes, I've seen chained error correcting-surges go that bad in a modern PC electrical environment). A computer that can keep running for days and weeks is in part thanks to error correction.

To try and solve power-supply induced interference (including interference from imperfect solar power inverters), you may need to do several of:

(A) Put your computer far away from large elecricity flows (especially transformers, power panels, dryer machines, refrigerators, solar panel power controllers, etc). Especially if they're in the wall behind your computer.
(B) Upgrade your computer power supply; and overprovision generously (get an 800 watter even if you only use 400 watts), preferably 80plus Platinum that has a great guarantee or serverroom cred. This will help some AC issues.
(C) Finally, plug everything into a high-rated power conditioner (with voltage regulation) with true sine-wave AC. Some of these doubles as a UPS. Just a plain common UPS won't be enough. Then anything that touches both your computer and the power, needs to plug into this to be protected. This includes all accessories, monitors, etc.

Doing all the above, will build a multiple moats against power transients, power surges, power distortions, RFI, etc. Including those caused by cheap solar inverter units. As a bonus, you'll also be better protected against lightning storms too.

If you want to go overkill, protect all wires that connect to the computer. Phone filter, Ethernet filter, etc. These may relay power interference indirectly from another RFI-noisy part of the house (e.g. Ethernet run from router connected elsewhere), but you can easily replace any problematic Ethernet links with an ~$80 optical fiber link (a pair of Ethernet-to-optical media converters are now cheap at places like fs.com) so that no unconditioned metal wires (power and non-power) ever touch your computer from elsewhere in your house. But that's a bit overkill.

You might also want to hire an electrician with power conditioning experience (the "good electrician" stuff that datacenteres hire!) but that can be more expensive than simply purchasing the equipment in (A)+(B)+(C), moat-off your computer room into its clean electricity island, and then calling it a day.

Congratulations for successfully confirmation power-supply-induced frametime spikes in the fog of red herrings -- mains-supply-induced computer problems is one of the most difficult kinds of computer problems to troubleshoot. Because of the danger of wild-goose-chases on power-related issues -- we very very rarely ask anyone to consider Sherlock Holmes on power issues, but we're glad that our suggestion on electricity troubleshooting helped!
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Re: 100+ ms frametime spike on 2 different pc builds.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » Yesterday, 21:46

RealNC wrote:
17 Feb 2020, 11:25
JimmyJimmyBTM wrote:
17 Feb 2020, 11:12
I unplugged everything except my pc and switched off the controller of my solar panels. I tested siege for an hour and the spikes were finally gone!
You should probably get a UPS that provides constant stable power regardless of what your solar panels are doing.
That's called a power conditioner with a UPS feature. ;)
Not all power conditioners have a built-in UPS, and a plain UPS definitely won't fix this type of problem.

Get one preferably with voltage regulation too. Pretty much a glorified UPS that cleans up the power too, and fixes undervoltages, and fixes the voltage as well -- the threshold of some solar inverter can create brief-brownout-like events as it tries to decide to switch between the utility grid and the rooftop solar. Voltage regulation fixes this. This is what I would recommend you try. They will cost a several hundred dollars typically, much more than the cheap stuff. This should filter solar panel power inverter interference. For example, an APC BackUPS won't be enough, and even an APC J25B may not be enough, but the APC J35B is more likely sufficient to clean up problems with the switchover between multiple power systems -- such as solar power, generators, and main grid. Solar is a bigger potential culprit because frequent clouds means frequent power switchover events which might crash a computer (power dropout induced) or stall a computer (frametime spikes). Also, I can't necessarily vouch for the J35B as I have not tried it, just providing examples of UPS products that will help better than others.

___________

For other readers visiting this thread (thanks to this successful diagnosis, and google search will probably land on this thread for people searching for electricity-related frametime spikes), and concerned about electricity interfering with your computer performance:

TL;DR, three simultaneously protective moats are recommended to eliminate power-related frametime spikes:
1. Move computer at least a few feet away from other gadgets, high-power appliances, and electric wires (including ones inside your wall)
2. Use a really high quality computer power supply (high rated & overprovisioned);
3. Get a good power conditioner unit with automatic voltage regulation (these are often higher-end UPS units too)


If you're still having frametime spikes after this triple approach, it's virtually certain it's caused by something else other than power. But this is a recommended best-practice to triple-moat your power for mission-critical stuff, especially if working offgrid, have a solar roof, a fragile-grid country, your lights flicker a lot, or have lots of lightning. These power conditioners typically double as surge protectors.

Note: This is a "throw-money-at-something-just-in-case" insurance style investment, a Han Solo "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" approach to spending money to proactively protecting your frametime-spikes away from electricity-related problems. There's no guarantee that your frametime spike is caused by electricity (even though it can and does happen). It's almost never worth anybody's time to spend dozens of hours troubleshooting for electricity-related problems (too many red herrings and wild goose chases). However, it is an automatic good best-practice to spend a few hundred dollars protecting your computer if you're one of the "at-risk" people such as someone with a solar roof, or someone living in a storm-prone area, or someone with flickering lights all over their house (for that one, get that checked by al electrician too), etc. But if you must troubleshoot your electricity yourself, and you know how to install power wiring or a new circuit breaker, get a Power Line Noise Analyzer gadget for your electrician toolbox. However, if you're not having any other electricity problems, save the time-money and protect your computer.
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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