Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 08 Jan 2020, 06:33

The comments section at the bottom of the Blur Busters Approved announcement page, is also demanding 60Hz single-strobe:

Image

As you can see, it may flicker, but a percentage of users don't mind.
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nuninho1980
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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by nuninho1980 » 08 Jan 2020, 07:24

I force single strobe for 50 Hz for TV broadcasting and other multimedia!!

If BenQ doesn't do new firmware to fix strobe failure at 50 Hz for my XL2411P, I may back to the old CRT monitor until XG270 or future LCD-LED/OLED monitor with single strobe of 50 Hz ready. ;)
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alapsu
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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by alapsu » 08 Jan 2020, 21:00

What is the reason MBR-supported displays have a minimum refresh rate at which they can strobe? Is this a hardware or a software limitation?

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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 09 Jan 2020, 14:33

alapsu wrote:
08 Jan 2020, 21:00
What is the reason MBR-supported displays have a minimum refresh rate at which they can strobe? Is this a hardware or a software limitation?
100% artificial limitation.

It’s actually easier to strobe at lower Hz.

It’s often a one-line code fix.

However, manufacturers do this because:
- Too much flicker
Monitor manufacturers see the flicker, think it’s bad, and disable low-Hz strobing
- Concerns about user complaints
This is easily resolved by having a disclaimer message such as “Low Hz strobing may flicker. Discontinue use if you have discomfort.
- User education
Accidentally enabling strobing for the first time at low Hz, may produce a bad user experience for those users who do not understand

However, low-Hz strobing has many advantages
- There are many users (including this thread) who don’t mind low-Hz strobing
- Much content such as dark video games are more comfortable at 60Hz strobe than bright Windows desktops
- Fast-motion material such as GoPro cameras, ski racing, red bull air races, look amazing at 60Hz single-strobe
- Emulators, like MAME, RetroArch, etc
- Console gaming at 60Hz
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Jason38
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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by Jason38 » 09 Jan 2020, 18:59

Falkentyne wrote:
14 Dec 2019, 23:31
To Viewsonic:

You are making an excellent monitor that is stealing the thunder from Asus and Benq's offerings, however one thing I feel you guys should implement is a 60hz blur reduction single strobe (one strobe per 16.7ms interval) at 60hz refresh rates. 60hz is an important setting because many PC console ports are locked to 60hz refresh rate, or 60 FPS otherwise. The Dark Souls and some other From Software games are also locked to 60hz/60 FPS, and Street Fighter 5, the most popular fighting game with crossplay capability, is also 60 FPS.

Also many arcade game emulators run at 60 FPS as well, so using 60hz/60 FPS with single strobing makes these games look arcade perfect in smoothness. The flicker eventually becomes an afterthought as backlight strobe flicker is only really noticeable on white backgrounds (e.g. browser windows).

Blur reduction at 60hz greatly improves image quality compared to blur reduction disabled. Images are a complete blurry mess with MBR off at 60hz.

Also, since these monitors can hook up to gaming consoles through HDMI that output 60hz only (or 50hz PAL), having the single strobe option will allow console users to buy this monitor and get smooth, blur free gaming by just enabling the service / OSD menu option to enable this.

The drawback to 60hz single strobe blur reduction is the backlight flicker that appears, and some people have health sensitive issues to flicker like this. This can be addressed by simply having "Double Strobe" as the default option at 60hz, which will strobe TWICE (meaning, two 8.3ms strobes, or otherwords, 120hz strobe timings) at 60hz, and then have the "Single Strobe" option available to be turned on for single frame strobing (with flicker). This way, anyone with problems with epileptic risks can simply disable this and double strobe.

Some monitors fall back to double strobing below 100hz, like the Benq original Z series (XL2411Z, XL2420Z, XL2720Z, XL2430T) below 96hz refresh rate, unless you enable the Single Strobe service menu option. This menu option has no effect at 100hz and higher, of course.

However, MANY People hate double strobing, because it creates a nasty double image effect to your eyes which looks very unnatural and can be more distracting than even MBR: Off. So it's important to have the option to enable "Single Strobing" at low refresh rates (depending on your regular single strobe cutoff happens, like 75hz, 60hz and in some cases, 50hz).

Thank you for your consideration in making firmware for this feature, and for working with Chief Blur Buster!
60hz with two 8.3ms strobes does this make the monitor flicker free at 60hz? I didn't know you could do this. I had that BENQ2411 but returned it because of the single strobe killed my eyes.

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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by alapsu » 09 Jan 2020, 19:38

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 14:33
100% artificial limitation.

It’s actually easier to strobe at lower Hz.

It’s often a one-line code fix.
Wow, that's not the answer I expected. If it's that hassle-free to implement 60 Hz single-strobing, that's a real shame. Add my name to the petition.

My use case:

I currently have a choice between playing at 1080p with MBR on a TN panel (XL2546) or at 2160p without MBR on an IPS panel.
  • The XL2546 can only strobe down to 100 Hz. This means that for a good MBR experience on the XL2546, my framerate can't dip below 100.
  • In modern titles, any GPU will struggle to maintain 100-Hz at all times.
  • In modern titles, any GPU will struggle to maintain an acceptable framerate at native 4k. Native 4k typically requires turning many settings down or using resolution scaling.
  • I don't have room for another monitor at my desk, so a new monitor would need to provide enough utility to justify replacing the old one.
  • If I could replace the XL2546 with a 240-hz IPS panel that also supports 60 Hz single-strobing, I could use it to play modern games with features like DXR enabled as well as older/console games capped at 60 FPS. This is what it would take for me to upgrade.

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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 09 Jan 2020, 22:48

Jason38 wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 18:59
60hz with two 8.3ms strobes does this make the monitor flicker free at 60hz? I didn't know you could do this. I had that BENQ2411 but returned it because of the single strobe killed my eyes.
It's very user-dependant and content-dependant.

60 Hz single strobe doesn't bother every one, while it bothers others.

- Size and FOV: Old 60 Hz CRT monitors are smaller than gaming monitors. Push monitor further away to reduce FOV. This helps.
- Darker Games: Like some old arcade games that are much more tolerable with single-strobe 60 Hz. This helps.
- Not Desktop: Don't use bright windows desktops with single strobe 60 Hz. Stick to high-Hz for Windows desktops. This helps.
- Sensitivity Varies: Not all users are sensitive.

Giving users a choice is important. It's easy to hide this behind a disclaimer. Sony and LG has single-strobe 60 Hz in their big TV sets. Sony and LG uses disclaimers with their 60 Hz strobing features in their television sets.

Note: Strobe width adjustments are a good way longer strobe pulse widths will still flicker with 60 Hz. A 50%:50% strobe only reduces motion blur by 50%. However, it does flicker a lot less. The new XG270 PureXP+ levels adjustments (in the new firmware) are 10%, 20%, 30% and 40% respectively, so you get about 10%, 20%, 30% and 40% original motion blur of non-strobed (at same Hz), in your flicker-vs-brightness-vs-motionblur tradeoff balance that users can choose.

AFAIK, the XL2546 will single strobe all the way down to 75 Hz. But that's only 15 Hz higher than 60 fps material.
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
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alapsu
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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by alapsu » 09 Jan 2020, 23:51

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
09 Jan 2020, 22:48
AFAIK, the XL2546 will single strobe all the way down to 75 Hz. But that's only 15 Hz higher than 60 fps material.
Interesting. When I set mine to anything below 100 Hz and run the strobe utility, it always just looks like MBR-off.

elexor
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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by elexor » 10 Jan 2020, 00:11

Just tried to play some retro games on my benq with singlestrobe enabled the flicker isn't that bad it's no worse then looking at a crt and the motion is excellent. only thing i notice is a little crosstalk in the top half of the screen. I would buy this monitor [the ViewSonic XG270] for sure if they enabled single strobe. the colors and brightness of the benq are not the best i would imagine this certified monitor would be alot better in that respect?.

AddictFPS
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Re: Dear ViewSonic: Please Add 60 Hz Single-Strobe for PureXP on XG270

Post by AddictFPS » 15 Jan 2020, 17:59

I vote unlock 50-75 range, with a warning about dangers of flicker at low frecuency, user take the risk, and accepts not blame viewsonic or blurbusters if something happens, of course !

Should be a "difficult way" o "several step" unlock, to avoid people without know what are doing can activate it just when navigate in the OSD testing options. Or hide it, and only show when make a trick like hold button press 5 seconds in some OSD zone.

I'm from Spain, 50Hz is good here to view the standar 50p streaming without blur. In CRT monitor 1920x1080@50Hz motion is good, at 100Hz show Double Image, LCD not strobed Blur. If someone in europe set XG270 at 100Hz, also double image, so is not a complete replacement of the CRT, i want at least compare it, and decide which one is better.

If there are strobe lenght settings for set 50/60Hz with the same amount of flicker that a CRT monitor, is a safe flicker for to much people that prefer this flicker instead double images or blur.

I want try use Smooth Video Project, thanks Chief for post it i don't know this software, and if it not make artifacts, i prefer interpolate 50p to 100p and see it with CRT 100Hz o XG270 strobed 100Hz.

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