Blur Busters Forums

Hi.

I'm looking to upgrade my xg2401 144hz to a 240hz plus for Overwatch - I play with 280-300fps unlocked but would potentially use freesync with 240hz+

I don't use / know what ULMB / strobing really is, but I want as little delay as possible, so if those things benefit here I'm sure to try it? - also the colors on my xg2401 are terrible despite reviews (great at 60hz - terribly washed out at 144hz) so would like to see improvements here too

Im trying to decide between xf252qm which is pretty cheap near me atm 280 usd - and the Vg259qm ( this isn't available for me yet - any ideas when it'll be selling in the US? - also haven't found much information on this but if its ips visuals without sacrificing delay it will surely be worth it)

Anyone had experiene with these monitors or have a good resource for it? Does the 259qm definitely have same specs as the 279qm? I saw the tftcentral review of the 27inch variant - I don't fully understand it as it seemed to state its got the least overall delay of monitors but when measuring input lag on realistic settings they said something along the lines of 'this is a little worse than ideal' - I'm on phone atm I'll try to update with more direct quote soon..

Or any other monitors which would be even better suited to me?

Thanks

Hi (I don't know English well )

I had xf252qx and now I have VG279QM. Regarding tftcentral: Input lag of VG279QM 2.3ms, input lag of xf252qx 3.3ms, response time of VG279QM in default mode(240hz and 60od) is 5.1ms, response time of xf252qx 2.6ms.

But what I want to say that I play CS GO and for me input lag is main thing, it gives better mouse feeling and I can play little bit better with VG279QM than xf252qm and input lag more important I think than response time. I can not notice the difference in response time, but feel the difference in input lag. Also better panel: view angles, colors(but I liked colors on xf252qx also) also cross-hatching effect is more noticable on XF252QX. So recommend VG259QM.

I assume you meant the VG259QM vs the XF252Q (Acer?)

I own both the VG279QM and XN253QX (Gysnc version of the XF252Q). I think you will be better served with the XF252Q.
A TN panel is still very much the fastest panel you can get today especially if it's the newer generation lower response time panels such as the XN253QX/XF252Q.

I will take a few UFO pursuit videos to demonstrate the differences later today. The 280Hz on the Asus is still very much an overclock and it seems that the monitor is unable to handle that refresh rate well and causes more problems than good.

Strobbing is very much a hit or miss as some people can end up getting headaches or eye strain from using this functionality. I wouldn't count on it. From my personal experience, ELMB on the VG279QM gave me quite abit of eye strain in even short gaming sessions and I couldn't make out why- later I found out about "strobe crosstalk" which is basically me seeing double in the UFO tests and this probably explains why my eyes are taking a hit from playing with the strobing on.

I believe most of the newer TN panels have much improved colors and it should be more bearable than the previous generations but end of the day- if you want the very fastest panel available. I would still think the XF252Q is the way to go.

sk1p wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 01:56

Hi (I don't know English well )

I had xf252qx and now I have VG279QM. Regarding tftcentral: Input lag of VG279QM 2.3ms, input lag of xf252qx 3.3ms, response time of VG279QM in default mode(240hz and 60od) is 5.1ms, response time of xf252qx 2.6ms.

But what I want to say that I play CS GO and for me input lag is main thing, it gives better mouse feeling and I can play little bit better with VG279QM than xf252qm and input lag more important I think than response time. I can not notice the difference in response time, but feel the difference in input lag. Also better panel: view angles, colors(but I liked colors on xf252qx also) also cross-hatching effect is more noticable on XF252QX. So recommend VG259QM.

Hm, what's the difference interms of input lag / response time? Surely you have to add both together before you can feel anything? Or you can somehow tell the difference in feel? Is it definitely not just placebo?

How long have you used the new 279qm? How much better are these colors? I play 99pct of the time overwatch or fps games on low settings but I am partial to a good rpg - witcher 3 - rdr2 etc.. So if the competitiveness is pretty much identical, the 279qm like night and day better than the TN panel?

x0fff8 wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 03:49

I assume you meant the VG259QM vs the XF252Q (Acer?)

I own both the VG279QM and XN253QX (Gysnc version of the XF252Q). I think you will be better served with the XF252Q.
A TN panel is still very much the fastest panel you can get today especially if it's the newer generation lower response time panels such as the XN253QX/XF252Q.

I will take a few UFO pursuit videos to demonstrate the differences later today. The 280Hz on the Asus is still very much an overclock and it seems that the monitor is unable to handle that refresh rate well and causes more problems than good.

Strobbing is very much a hit or miss as some people can end up getting headaches or eye strain from using this functionality. I wouldn't count on it. From my personal experience, ELMB on the VG279QM gave me quite abit of eye strain in even short gaming sessions and I couldn't make out why- later I found out about "strobe crosstalk" which is basically me seeing double in the UFO tests and this probably explains why my eyes are taking a hit from playing with the strobing on.

I believe most of the newer TN panels have much improved colors and it should be more bearable than the previous generations but end of the day- if you want the very fastest panel available. I would still think the XF252Q is the way to go.

Hey yeah sorry typo

Are you sure the 252 is exactly the same as the gsync counterpart? I saw some ppl say its the same exact thing but some other say it has slightly slower panel on the 252 - unsure. How do I check if mine is the newer generation btw? The one I had my eye on is refurbished with amazon

I look forward to seeing what you mean by the ufo test you mentioned.

What do you say to the guy above who thinks his 279 feels faster? :/

I've never had an IPS so I'm unsure how great the difference is between the colors etc for the odd rpg.

Burgz wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 13:32

Hey yeah sorry typo

Are you sure the 252 is exactly the same as the gsync counterpart? I saw some ppl say its the same exact thing but some other say it has slightly slower panel on the 252 - unsure. How do I check if mine is the newer generation btw? The one I had my eye on is refurbished with amazon

I look forward to seeing what you mean by the ufo test you mentioned.

What do you say to the guy above who thinks his 279 feels faster? :/

I've never had an IPS so I'm unsure how great the difference is between the colors etc for the odd rpg.

The XF252Q is marketed to have as low as 0.3ms response time in ideal situations, this would very well mean it's the latest AUO TN panel available similar to the XN253QX, the only difference begin the later has a gsync module in it.

You can see the UFO motion tracking videos I have made here.

ASUS VG279QM :
ACER XN253QX :
(Asus -> Acer) :

Im not sure about sk1p's findings but the use case he brings about is very biased towards CSGO and I might understand why- perhaps its a 27" and heads are bigger and as such, easier to click? In a game with way more VFX and crazy animations of a faster pace like overwatch/COD, i think you'd be missing out on the superior motion handling on the TN panels.

sk1p wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 01:56

But what I want to say that I play CS GO and for me input lag is main thing, it gives better mouse feeling and I can play little bit better with VG279QM than xf252qm and input lag more important I think than response time. I can not notice the difference in response time, but feel the difference in input lag. Also better panel: view angles, colors(but I liked colors on xf252qx also) also cross-hatching effect is more noticable on XF252QX. So recommend VG259QM.

This is what i was referring to, CSGO being a very linear game with predictable/linear motion + little VFX doesn't require very demanding motion handling- However, I have my doubts over how one can tell the difference in input lag of 1ms really.

YMMV though!

Very nice homebrew pursuits! Not perfect, but better than some reviewers I've seen.

P.S. It does look approximately six exposures per refresh cycle which is fine (two bright tickmarks indicate double exposure) -- and just a very smiiiidge of overexposure -- you might want to try a video app such as DSLRCamera (iOS) that lets you adjust exposure per video frame, as well as ISO.

x0fff8 wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 23:02

However, I have my doubts over how one can tell the difference in input lag of 1ms really.

While tiny, one doesn't need to feel the millisecond to win by it. The 100 meter Olympic sprint finish line, versus a simultaneous draw when seeing each other after turning a curner is a race-to-the-trigger. Although 1ms is only one-eighth of a single 128-tick CS:GO, it can matter in LAN play if that 1ms increases your odds of getting the frag in an earlier tick.

Not important for casual play, but relevant when you're winning $100,000 in an esports stadium.

Also, think of the familiar-lag training effect (Aka "muscle memory"). The overshoot-your-aim effect. If you're turning at 8000 pixels per second (3 screenwidths per second approx for a 2560x1440 screen, still eyetrackable speed), 1ms translates into an 8pixel lagbehind or lagahead effect that you might need to retrain torwards. Whether trying to chase a moving aerial target in Fortnite, or doing a quick flickturn-and-instantly-aim manoever in CS:GO -- there are many situations where your mouse is going thousands of pixels per second and you want your crosshairs to stop exactly where you want it to be when you suddenly stop moving your mouse. Especially if you've got a uber-precision esports mouse, high dpi, ultra silky mouse feet, and all -- and have eliminated your mouse microstutter weak links. But that lag familiarty effect (some call "muscle memory") is very subtle, probably undetectable, at the 1ms levels the vast majority of the time -- but isn't impossible to detect in well-constructed tests. In artificially constructed synthetic tests, it is already possible to feel low-single-digit mis-sync effect in /certain/ situations, when you're pushing the display technology needle (higher FOV + higher rez + higher Hz + constructed test that may not exist in many games).

The easiest way to understand this is the 1000Hz touchscreen for the lagbehind effect. But you don't have a physical-virtual sync issue; however, it is possible to feel like "I am aiming badly" effect at just a few milliseconds (e.g. you're scoring worse because you're overshooting or undershooting a flickturn-and-aim situation, i.e. 8000pix/sec mouseflick straight to a target = 8 pixel overshoot if you're suddenly given a 1ms-unfamiliar latency).

5ms sudden change? The lag-training effect will be thrown off at the paid competitive level (esports athletes). 5ms is a whopping 20pixel overshoot at 4000 pxiels/sec slewing/turning/panning followed by a sudden stop-on-target. Forcing you to swerve your X-hairs back and fourth until your X-hairs is nailed on target. The lag change of your equipment (caused by switching to a higher lag monitor or lower lag monitor, or changing sync settings, etc.) meant you aren't nailing the X-hairs on instant-stops from fast-flicks, you now have to "retrain" towards the new lag (even sudden lag decreases too, not just lag increases) before you're nailing those "sudden flick-turn-and-instantly-aim" situations. But 1ms throwing off "muscle memory"? Well, that's hard even for me to believe but I definitely don't dismiss the Millisecond. The millisecond always surprises (i.e. 0.5ms-vs-1.0ms MPRT Is human visible to my own eyes, but MPRT is different from latency). So, I've come to respect thy millisecond, and want to see more studies on various aspects of the millisecond as it applies to display technology.

Maybe if we're pushing the needle (like a 4K 240Hz display combined with a 2000Hz mouse). The question is how it translates to real world. But it likely would be very rare, and more relevant to solo/LAN/stadium play rather than online play. It's likely right at the noisefloor.

Now.... There are many factors that are more likely. Like brighter/faster colors reducing human reaction time, identifying enemies more than a millisecond faster (which is more than compensating for GtG limits of IPS vs TN). Or warmer temperatures making a panel 1ms GtG faster (18C versus 20C actually can slowdown/speedup GtG of some monitors -- always warm up a panel for 30-60 minutes in the winter before starting a critical game. Or other tiny factor that raises the VG279QM above the noisefloor. After all, I'm a huge "1ms IPS" fan nowadays.

Scientifically -- Seriously -- sometime, I'd love to commission tests on pushing the needle with actual professional (players who win championship money) rather than off-the-street players or casual university-student players testing a reaction-time demobooth. I've already commissioned some, such as the Human Reflex article.

x0fff8 wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 23:02

Burgz wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 13:32

Hey yeah sorry typo

Are you sure the 252 is exactly the same as the gsync counterpart? I saw some ppl say its the same exact thing but some other say it has slightly slower panel on the 252 - unsure. How do I check if mine is the newer generation btw? The one I had my eye on is refurbished with amazon

I look forward to seeing what you mean by the ufo test you mentioned.

What do you say to the guy above who thinks his 279 feels faster? :/

I've never had an IPS so I'm unsure how great the difference is between the colors etc for the odd rpg.

The XF252Q is marketed to have as low as 0.3ms response time in ideal situations, this would very well mean it's the latest AUO TN panel available similar to the XN253QX, the only difference begin the later has a gsync module in it.

You can see the UFO motion tracking videos I have made here.

ASUS VG279QM :

phpBB [video]

ACER XN253QX :

phpBB [video]

(Asus -> Acer) :

phpBB [video]

Im not sure about sk1p's findings but the use case he brings about is very biased towards CSGO and I might understand why- perhaps its a 27" and heads are bigger and as such, easier to click? In a game with way more VFX and crazy animations of a faster pace like overwatch/COD, i think you'd be missing out on the superior motion handling on the TN panels.

sk1p wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 01:56

But what I want to say that I play CS GO and for me input lag is main thing, it gives better mouse feeling and I can play little bit better with VG279QM than xf252qm and input lag more important I think than response time. I can not notice the difference in response time, but feel the difference in input lag. Also better panel: view angles, colors(but I liked colors on xf252qx also) also cross-hatching effect is more noticable on XF252QX. So recommend VG259QM.

This is what i was referring to, CSGO being a very linear game with predictable/linear motion + little VFX doesn't require very demanding motion handling- However, I have my doubts over how one can tell the difference in input lag of 1ms really.

YMMV though!

Thank you so much for the help!

I ordered the xf242qx - should be here in about 4 days. - I'm tempted to also order the 259qm when it's available if within the month and just return whichever I don't like - I feel like if I don't try & see the color difference myself I'm going to always be wondering 'what if?'

Burgz wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 13:32

sk1p wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 01:56

Hi (I don't know English well )

I had xf252qx and now I have VG279QM. Regarding tftcentral: Input lag of VG279QM 2.3ms, input lag of xf252qx 3.3ms, response time of VG279QM in default mode(240hz and 60od) is 5.1ms, response time of xf252qx 2.6ms.

But what I want to say that I play CS GO and for me input lag is main thing, it gives better mouse feeling and I can play little bit better with VG279QM than xf252qm and input lag more important I think than response time. I can not notice the difference in response time, but feel the difference in input lag. Also better panel: view angles, colors(but I liked colors on xf252qx also) also cross-hatching effect is more noticable on XF252QX. So recommend VG259QM.

Hm, what's the difference interms of input lag / response time? Surely you have to add both together before you can feel anything? Or you can somehow tell the difference in feel? Is it definitely not just placebo?

How long have you used the new 279qm? How much better are these colors? I play 99pct of the time overwatch or fps games on low settings but I am partial to a good rpg - witcher 3 - rdr2 etc.. So if the competitiveness is pretty much identical, the 279qm like night and day better than the TN panel?

x0fff8 wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 03:49

I assume you meant the VG259QM vs the XF252Q (Acer?)

I own both the VG279QM and XN253QX (Gysnc version of the XF252Q). I think you will be better served with the XF252Q.
A TN panel is still very much the fastest panel you can get today especially if it's the newer generation lower response time panels such as the XN253QX/XF252Q.

I will take a few UFO pursuit videos to demonstrate the differences later today. The 280Hz on the Asus is still very much an overclock and it seems that the monitor is unable to handle that refresh rate well and causes more problems than good.

Strobbing is very much a hit or miss as some people can end up getting headaches or eye strain from using this functionality. I wouldn't count on it. From my personal experience, ELMB on the VG279QM gave me quite abit of eye strain in even short gaming sessions and I couldn't make out why- later I found out about "strobe crosstalk" which is basically me seeing double in the UFO tests and this probably explains why my eyes are taking a hit from playing with the strobing on.

I believe most of the newer TN panels have much improved colors and it should be more bearable than the previous generations but end of the day- if you want the very fastest panel available. I would still think the XF252Q is the way to go.

Hey yeah sorry typo

Are you sure the 252 is exactly the same as the gsync counterpart? I saw some ppl say its the same exact thing but some other say it has slightly slower panel on the 252 - unsure. How do I check if mine is the newer generation btw? The one I had my eye on is refurbished with amazon

I look forward to seeing what you mean by the ufo test you mentioned.

What do you say to the guy above who thinks his 279 feels faster? :/

I've never had an IPS so I'm unsure how great the difference is between the colors etc for the odd rpg.

I had XF252QX for two days then returned to shop, felt delay about input lag in CS GO after Asus vg248qe, could not play in CS GO so well as on Asus Vg248qe, on the VG279QM I didn't feel delay, it fast in terms of input lag as VG248qe, but I admit that in terms of motion clarity XF252QX should be better little bit, just for me input lag is main, colors were good on XF252QX and VG279QM, in my opininon VG279QM just better by view angles because of IPS, but I had XF252QX in August and just remember that colors I liked, but as for input lag it's exactly that VG279QM little bit faster.

x0fff8 wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 23:02

Burgz wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 13:32

Hey yeah sorry typo

Are you sure the 252 is exactly the same as the gsync counterpart? I saw some ppl say its the same exact thing but some other say it has slightly slower panel on the 252 - unsure. How do I check if mine is the newer generation btw? The one I had my eye on is refurbished with amazon

I look forward to seeing what you mean by the ufo test you mentioned.

What do you say to the guy above who thinks his 279 feels faster? :/

I've never had an IPS so I'm unsure how great the difference is between the colors etc for the odd rpg.

The XF252Q is marketed to have as low as 0.3ms response time in ideal situations, this would very well mean it's the latest AUO TN panel available similar to the XN253QX, the only difference begin the later has a gsync module in it.

You can see the UFO motion tracking videos I have made here.

ASUS VG279QM :

phpBB [video]

ACER XN253QX :

phpBB [video]

(Asus -> Acer) :

phpBB [video]

Im not sure about sk1p's findings but the use case he brings about is very biased towards CSGO and I might understand why- perhaps its a 27" and heads are bigger and as such, easier to click? In a game with way more VFX and crazy animations of a faster pace like overwatch/COD, i think you'd be missing out on the superior motion handling on the TN panels.

sk1p wrote: ↑

22 Mar 2020, 01:56

But what I want to say that I play CS GO and for me input lag is main thing, it gives better mouse feeling and I can play little bit better with VG279QM than xf252qm and input lag more important I think than response time. I can not notice the difference in response time, but feel the difference in input lag. Also better panel: view angles, colors(but I liked colors on xf252qx also) also cross-hatching effect is more noticable on XF252QX. So recommend VG259QM.

This is what i was referring to, CSGO being a very linear game with predictable/linear motion + little VFX doesn't require very demanding motion handling- However, I have my doubts over how one can tell the difference in input lag of 1ms really.

YMMV though!

About input lag: Yep, I admit that strange to see the difference between 3.3ms vs 2.3ms(regarding to tft), but I played CS from 2000(cs1.1) and never change my settings, see that something wrong immediatly. Just for me I can play with more confidence on VG279QM, but in terms of motion clarity XF252QX better. It's my subjective opinion, it might be wrong. If you don't play fast competetive games it might better to go and buy XG252QX. As for the colors I think they very close, because fast IPS doesn't show the best picture quality.

I received the XF252QM but i didnt wanna start a whole new thread for a couple questions i have -

In terms of overdrive for XF252QM - I dont quite understand how to read the RTINGS review - https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... tro-xf252q

I can't tell a visual difference between extreme & normal ingame (ghosting etc) - but the tables for overdrive response times seem to indicate that 'Normal' has a faster response time than 'Extreme'
https://www.rtings.com/images/reviews/m ... -large.jpg
https://www.rtings.com/images/reviews/m ... -large.jpg

(again I'm likely looking at this entirely wrong - I'm new to all of this, can anyone clear up my confusion?)

Also interms of freesync the review has 3.0ms for native res - 3.1ms for vrr - so 240hz with freesync is only 0.1ms more?
I notice other refresh rates have different / generally worse input lag / response times than native 240 - so if you're using freesync and drop to say 180hz - does that mean the input lag gets worse too aside from the obvious higher latency due to less frames?

Thanks