I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Everything about input lag. Tips, testing methods, mouse lag, display lag, game engine lag, whole input lag chain, VSYNC OFF vs VSYNC ON, and more! Input Lag Articles on Blur Busters.
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RamenRider
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I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by RamenRider » 28 Jun 2020, 21:37

So a bit about my journey, I made an input lag guide about it that you could read over there. https://community.amd.com/message/2958691

It's very outdated compared to the plethora of information I obtained in the past week. Also note I now have a 3900x Build with x570 and 5700xt.

I initially thought my input lag had something to do with Window's scheduler that affects Ryzen but no, it is DWM and will forever be DWM. Even if you disable FSO(Fullscreen Optimization) you will forever be cucked by DWM. Because it's BROKEN on Windows 10 since last year! Every time I thought I've gotten close to my problem, it returns! Even in Windows 8 and 7. They are rolling back these horrid input lag problems to older OS's too!

From my posts on the infamous Roach thread. https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel ... st28501998
THIS IS IT, I FINALLY FREAKING FOUND IT

THE PROBLEM IS FROM THE POS WINDOWS ITSELF

ALL WINDOWS VERSIONS ARE FOREVER BROKEN AND WILL IGNORE DISABLE FULLSCREEN OPTIMIZAITON
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcgaming/comme ... e_disable/

Now all that's left is to get rid of the vysnc and dwm. Maybe if we can find a way to change the "High DPI Scaling"/DPI awareness back to before 1709, or disable it completely, it'll also be great for aiming. BRING BACK SCREEN TEARING.
There has to be even more registry tweaks to improve my performance! I've won all my ranked (masters OW) games so far. This registry tweak is insanely good. I say it's brought my input lag back to 90% potential. Here's my registry right now. I played around with it a bit like set DVR_enabled to 1 or added GameDVR_FSEBehavior, but this works fine for now. See [Picture Attatchment 1] My Input lag for gaming I'd say is around 85-90% fixed, but the overall responsiveness is still cursed. I guess the only way out is the scour the internet for a worthy ISO or maybe find a way to install my build correctly.

Here's 2 more options to fix disable fullscreen optimization on registry. https://www.reddit.com/r/PUBATTLEGROUND ... ullscreen/
I tried the 211 Flag thing on overwatch, but forgot to save my registry so I couldn't test it on and off.

So as you all know I compare input lag differences between builds, mostly AMD. I've had Everything from Dell Inspiron i3s - Athlon - FX - and all 3 Generations of Ryzen. The problem started when Windows started changing the way their DWM worked and for a while, all you needed to do was disable fullscreen optimization and that was it. Nowadays the input lag is apparent across the entire system from desktop to applications. This is what I call a CursedOS. They are even backrolling some of these changes to Windows 7 and Windows 8. There is something inherently wrong with different Windows versions/ISOs/updates/build configurations/or even installations that affect how well it performs.

Just a few days ago I went to my friend's house and tested his 3700x build and his girlfriend's 1600 build. His 3700x has much more input lag in both desktop and games even if using a 2080super. Her 1600 with rx 590 has phenomenal input lag, it felt so amazing to use; I haven't felt something so good in a long time. Her build didn't even need the registry tweaks, it was Perfect and disable fullscreen optimization worked great as intended. Even just using the mouse on the desktop felt incredible. They are both auto updated to the latest 1909 and their registries on GameConfigStore were identical.
The differences are that he built her that PC along time ago, back when the rx 590 came out or a bit before. His 3700x was built last year, so maybe like most of my newer installs, they all have input lag now because the ISOs that microsoft put out are all garbage Cursed OS's. One thing that I did discover from this is that Freesync sometimes feels better enabled. Maybe it was just placebo. Attached are images of their GameConfigStore registries and systems.
Now these patches, I would say they are 75-85% effective at reducing desktop composition/DWM input lag. But you know what makes the biggest difference?

I downloaded 2016 LTSB and it's so damn good. No input lag in desktop or games! Sure scaling is broken and looks ugly, but everything is smooth and responsive especially in games. Went 61 elims and 33 final blows in an OW ranked match, haven't had this much fun in a long time. I could have been a pro but I just couldn't find the cause for the lag soon enough.

However, it was just a distant dream. The input lag returned the next day. Definitely from an update, even on 2016 LTSB it comes to haunt me. SMH, I knew I should have disabled updates completely with wpd.app or some other win10 privacy tool.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel ... st28513434
I did find this other general guide for removing stuttering from games. https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comm ... sible_fix/

Within that guide it provides a bat file that can disable DWM on all applications on your system. However it doesn't really do much because Disable Fullscreen Optimization has been broken since 1903. https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comm ... mizations/

However someone from the ReviOS discord recommended me this tool that could potentially disable DWM, but I don't know how to use it or open it after I cloned it. https://github.com/Biswa96/Junkyard/blo ... /KillDwm.c

Lastly I found this method to disable DWM on certain applications. Much easier to do than the aforementioned tweaks. But I'm not sure if it worked or not. https://superuser.com/questions/1509013 ... ws-10-1903
After all of that, the answer was HERE In these forums. From a post made in 2018! viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4512
Update 2

Have done some further testings. Recreated the effect with only one DWM priority. Through the Process Hacker, the Priority was set to Idle. Changing the states of any other priorities was not needed. Although, when testing in-game, and constantly alt-tabbing from full screen and back, it would seem that, sometimes, the dwm.exe had to be restarted in order to get the effect (no need to leave the game, just service restart and then alt-tab back to the game).
I use AMD everything, so this is just still a temporary solution (I have the same problem as Update 2 but didn't do those nvidia tweaks) Having to restart DWM every session is kinda ehh. Will try 20.04 soon tho. My input lag is really great, used this DWM tweak on 1909, feels even better than the 2016 LTSB drive(well it was broken after the update anyways).

Also, I'm not sure but I believe old default AMD drivers might have less input lag than the drivers now.

UPDATE 8/07/2020

Someone sent me more settings. THIS IS IT. As close to 2015 performance. https://www.auslogics.com/en/articles/d ... n-windows/
Advanced Windows Users: (Win-Server2019 & Win-10)
Guide for replacing Windows's alt-tab resource wasting feature & replace with the one from XP.
Manual Guide By Windows Central
https://www.windowscentral.com/how-brin ... windows-10
-----------------------------------------------
Direct link- For those who don't want to mess around with editing Registry manually.
(XP= Basic) (Stock= Win 10 Stock)
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/r0ifq9zbku7cu/Alt_Tab
User: After applying Logout & then login again to take effect.
TO Undo: Don't worry if you don't like it double-click the win 10 stock file & changes value back to "0" (Back to stock)

Unsure if it saves GPU or CPU or both, But has an extremely positive effect for sure.
Edit: (it disables all the alt-tab rendering features so probably a bit of both🤦‍♂️😂)
Hot-tip: Save all your favourite Reg tweaks to a USB-Stick for super-quick deployment on a new PC / Fresh Install.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I can imagine APU's would really benefit from this.
Change to Classic Alt Tab Windows 10 Add dwords AltTabSettings value 1.jpg
Change to Classic Alt Tab Windows 10 Add dwords AltTabSettings value 1.jpg (495.62 KiB) Viewed 142 times
This guy sent me all the best damn tweaks too. 20.04 Updated every week.

[*]Scripts for disabling DWM.
[*]Disable Game DVR
[*]System Visual Options for Raw Performance
[*]Windows HW Accelerated Effects
[*]Classic AltTab fix

This is all of them compiled into one download. https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ha89h1 ... limWindows

The Universe is really treating me well right now. I'm finding all of the ways to Disable DWM. Will add all of them to the OP as well. viewtopic.php?p=54666#p54666
Last edited by RamenRider on 09 Jul 2020, 00:40, edited 2 times in total.

dervu
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Joined: 17 Apr 2020, 18:09

Re: I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by dervu » 29 Jun 2020, 05:39

Now let's ask ourselves if pros use builds that have the same input lag. Are they blind to it or just used to it?
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RamenRider
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Re: I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by RamenRider » 29 Jun 2020, 17:17

dervu wrote:
29 Jun 2020, 05:39
Now let's ask ourselves if pros use builds that have the same input lag. Are they blind to it or just used to it?
That's a great answer only they can provide. I personally have great input lag memory from even when I was gaming as a kid at 4 years old. I can tell the difference between when an Emulator has input lag compared to actual hardware. There's so many variables because it's a relatively new problem in the gaming world. PC gaming included. All the old consoles played so well, nes, gb, gc, ps1, ps2, xbox, dreamcast even PC gaming until 2016. Windows keeps getting worse and worse for gaming with every update. Companies and consumers do not really care about latency at all anymore. As long as it looked good and didn't affect performance too much. TVs manufacturers especially don't care, and console players playing on wifi definitely don't care.

I myself am honestly really unlucky. I just tested my other friend's system a few days ago. Perfect input lag, only needed to turn off Free Sync to be great. When DWM first changed in 2016 I never understood why until 2018 when I found out about Disable Fullscreen Optimization. It felt so good when I found out about that tweak. But then that was broken in Win10 1903 which also broke it in all previous versions as well. I don't know why my versions are all cursed. Maybe because I never pay for my Windows? It shouldn't be that because millions of others have this problem too whether they know it or not. Maybe Microsoft does actively gimp performance of unregistered or pirated devices, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I went on a 5 year manhunt to find all the reasons of why my input lag is the way it is. I may have found all of the minuscule tweaks you can do to improve performance by just a bit, however none of them can fix the garbage that is Desktop Windows Manager and Windows Updates. They are the overlaying reason to why Vysync is spread out across your entire system. Even for people who are searching for reducing DPC latency as much as possible, that search might help with people getting audio stutters and driver issues but it doesn't fix the root problem that is Windows and Microsoft themselves!. This is why I advocate for a new AMD based OS. They are the only ones who can do it.

Also this video explains in detail how the entire system responsiveness can be gimped by DWM, starting at 5 minutes.
phpBB [video]

MT_
Posts: 59
Joined: 17 Jan 2017, 15:39

Re: I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by MT_ » 30 Jun 2020, 17:32

This sounds like pure placebo really. If FSO is working correctly, i doubt anyone can discern the difference vs 'real' exclusive full screen with the naked eye.

There must be something else at play here.

If you really want to be problem free though, you'd better stick with LTSB or LTSC, both great and minimum input lag if configured right :-)

Brainlet
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Joined: 30 May 2020, 12:39

Re: I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by Brainlet » 30 Jun 2020, 18:29

I highly recommend just dual booting Windows 7 for gaming and Windows 10 for everything else. Windows 10 is bloated to no end, which is arguably manageable with NTLite to some extent, but drivers and kernel cant be fixed just like that.

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RamenRider
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Re: I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by RamenRider » 01 Jul 2020, 00:10

I wish you guys would read through my post before writing. I've been through everything already. Literally everything from changing power cords to ram timings to ipconfig tweaks.
MT_ wrote:
30 Jun 2020, 17:32
This sounds like pure placebo really. If FSO is working correctly, i doubt anyone can discern the difference vs 'real' exclusive full screen with the naked eye.

There must be something else at play here.

If you really want to be problem free though, you'd better stick with LTSB or LTSC, both great and minimum input lag if configured right :-)
https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mic ... st28358776

"Yes, the one main win 10 version I've used on all of them is Win 10 LTSC 1809. I really don't know why windows sometimes configures your version of windows to either be garbage with the wrong timer configuration or perfectly fine with no need for tweaking at all.

I even tried the disable HPET tip. https://www.overclock.net/forum/132-win ... st24250480

But even after I've gone through with roach's and Lhun's guide disabling everything before install, it still is installed with crap input lag, mostly the DWM forever a CursedOS. https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7 ... iguration/

Maybe the installation has something to do with the CPU or MOBO.

Really boggles my mind that there are people out there like me with crap performance and other people who have perfectly normal systems. So that's why some people believe other people with input lag are lying when they say they have input lag. They really can't understand what people are dealing with until they did what OP did with "bcdedit /set useplatformtick yes" that messed up his system. And neither of these people wouldn't notice if they have it or not, it's not really something that affects them unless they play in a highly skilled competitive pvp game and had other builds to compare it to."
Brainlet wrote:
30 Jun 2020, 18:29
I highly recommend just dual booting Windows 7 for gaming and Windows 10 for everything else. Windows 10 is bloated to no end, which is arguably manageable with NTLite to some extent, but drivers and kernel cant be fixed just like that.
Some had input lag no matter which windows version I was using. 7, 8, 10, didn't matter because Windows imports the same shitty updates from win 10.

I used W10 LTSC 1809 for my Ryzen 1600, but I found out that windows 1809 and over to have QueryPerformanceFrequency permanently set to 10mhz thanks to Intel's spectre and meltdown fiasco. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/win ... aa86ce30c0

Then theres the issue of Windows 1903 which doesn't allow games to use exclusive fullscreen mode anymore, thereby ignoring "Disable Fullscreen Optimizations." https://windowsreport.com/windows-10-ve ... 03-gaming/

Microsoft still hasn't fully optimized windows for Ryzen yet. AMD needs to hurry up and make their own OS. https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/d ... 1th_quiet/

Reading more into the fullscreen 1903 stuff, people are saying 1709 is the best for this reason. https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comm ... en_issues/

But that's where we reach a dilemma with Ryzen. The newer 1809+ versions have their QueryPerformanceFrequency stuck at 10mhz(how does it impact input lag?). And the older versions aren't optimized for Ryzen.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/b ... for_ryzen/

Bonus tweak for system timers you can experiment with. https://www.overclock.net/forum/375-mic ... st28357454

One more huge tweak I've done is setting my network adapter settings for better throughput/latency. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =727946014 FeelsGoodMan.

Really there's just so many variables, default windows is not meant for gaming, only stability for millions of devices. This is why AMD neeeds to create their own OS. They are the only ones who can do it.

1000WATT
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Re: I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by 1000WATT » 01 Jul 2020, 03:43

RamenRider wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 00:10
Brainlet wrote:
30 Jun 2020, 18:29
I highly recommend just dual booting Windows 7 for gaming and Windows 10 for everything else. Windows 10 is bloated to no end, which is arguably manageable with NTLite to some extent, but drivers and kernel cant be fixed just like that.
Some had input lag no matter which windows version I was using. 7, 8, 10, didn't matter because Windows imports the same shitty updates from win 10.
Who's stopping you from disabling updates?
RamenRider wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 00:10
Really there's just so many variables, default windows is not meant for gaming, only stability for millions of devices. This is why AMD neeeds to create their own OS. They are the only ones who can do it.
This is not necessary, in 5-7 years a new generation of children will appear who will buy an amd processor. After all, it is cheaper and with a bunch of cores.
I often do not clearly state my thoughts. google translate is far from perfect. And in addition to the translator, I myself am mistaken. Do not take me seriously.

deama
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Joined: 07 Aug 2019, 12:00

Re: I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by deama » 01 Jul 2020, 05:30

I don't see why you can't just install windows 7, disable dwm, and go on with your life, trying to tame windows 10 is futile.
After a few years, or several, try using linux, it keeps getting better and better for gaming every passing year.

Brainlet
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Joined: 30 May 2020, 12:39

Re: I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by Brainlet » 01 Jul 2020, 11:03

You dont need to update Windows 7. You can just use it in its pure, high performance , vulnerable state without security mitigations if youre only going to play games on it and use a patched W10 for everything else.

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RamenRider
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Re: I'M SO CLOSE TO FINISHING MY INPUT LAG!

Post by RamenRider » 01 Jul 2020, 19:03

deama wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 05:30
I don't see why you can't just install windows 7, disable dwm, and go on with your life, trying to tame windows 10 is futile.
After a few years, or several, try using linux, it keeps getting better and better for gaming every passing year.
Brainlet wrote:
01 Jul 2020, 11:03
You dont need to update Windows 7. You can just use it in its pure, high performance , vulnerable state without security mitigations if youre only going to play games on it and use a patched W10 for everything else.
I wish you guys would read my posts before replying. Why would I be using Win 7 on a 3900x 5700xt build without any of the security or scheduler optimizations ?

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