Blur Busters Forums

Hey, friends. I have been scouring the net (especially reddit and these forums) for answers for roughly 8 days now (at ~100 hrs lmao). I've read a LOT and tested a LOT at this point. I was going to make a HUGE, comprehensive post but I really put thought and effort towards the idea that Some Games Just Run Like Crap which has been reiterated many times by Jorimt. I believe him, now. I was getting to the point where I was questioning EMI and the like haha losing my mind, but ya know...Far Cry Primal runs like a dream...hm...

Anyway, I am getting really annoying frametime spikes in some games (games that were not giving me this problem until recently). Offline is the way I test this, primarily, so I'd prefer to only discuss that. It certainly feels like it happens in response to asset loading. It is not incredibly consistent, but is consistent enough to make that distinction and know which games are most afflicted. Gunfire Reborn is the best known example for a game that was not spiking (as high) before but definitely is now. I use this game as my primary test subject.

Recently I saw a comment from Jorimt where he said that double/triple buffering helps with large frametime spikes (like, over 50ms, I think he said?) and that is the issue I am experiencing. I don't care about the little spikes since I am positive that they will never really go away and were likely always there to begin with; however, the big bois (we're talking 70+ but usually 100-200) are super new for me. I'd like to lessen the impact of these. Does the buffering really help? If so, how?

The list of things I have tried is dizzying and much of it is stuff I have learned from these forums and beyond. I can list things here if it is helpful, but I think I am at this point more interested in explanation and the buffering question. I just ordered a g-sync monitor. I know it wont help these Big A** Spikes, but...I want to feel a little better about it all. I know it's driving my husband a bit mad with me be so obsessive about this haha.


Here's my hardware:
-ASrock B450 Steel Legend (new)
-Corsair RM 750x Gold (new)
-Ryzen 7 2700x
-GTX 1080ti (Also have a 1070 and 1060 which all experience the same issue)
-Crucial P2 M.2 2280 1TB (new and has OS + games on it. Less than 30% space used)
-A Kingston SATA SSD for other files
-A HDD with other files
-2x8gb Crucial Ballistix DDR4 3200mhz
-Dual Samsung 27" CF398 monitors

*PS: I have run Gunfire completely off of RAM, resulting in no change (except when I ran Beat Saber off RAM, the custom songs' icons looked pixelated as heck lol). I have used multiple drives including another M.2 as well as a HDD and a SATA SSD with no change.*

Any help is appreciated! Good chance that some "fixes" offered are things I have already tried. Sorry in advance for that. Again, I am really only interested in lessening the perceivable impact of massive frametime spikes.

Here's a vid. Frame caps/nvidia settings/graphics are irrelevant, thus far; this is what the experience is always like: https://youtu.be/Z7R5s5X28Cg

New threads on these are always welcome, there is so much ground to cover with millions of different causes of frametime spikes that are sometimes unrelated to existing threads. I see many oddball causes all the time, I helped one person diagnose a frametime spike RGB system tray software, as an odd example. But it can also be caused by the monitor too (in certain cases).

But before I leap with potentially incorrect assumptions:

BusterScrubbs wrote: ↑

19 Feb 2021, 17:05

Here's my hardware:
-ASrock B450 Steel Legend (new)
-Corsair RM 750x Gold (new)
-Ryzen 7 2700x
-GTX 1080ti (Also have a 1070 and 1060 which all experience the same issue)
-Crucial P2 M.2 2280 1TB (new and has OS + games on it. Less than 30% space used)
-A Kingston SATA SSD for other files
-A HDD with other files
-2x8gb Crucial Ballistix DDR4 3200mhz

You forgot to mention your monitor -- which monitor?
Which sync technology settings?
Which game settings?

(I prefer to know monitor-side, driver-side, and game-side. Unlike the old days of yore, there is much more co-operation between graphics drivers and monitors (e.g. variable refresh rate subsystems such as FreeSync and G-SYNC) that can create unexpected interaction issues, because of the increased co-operative behaviour between computer and monitor, where the monitor actually waits for the computer, rather than vice-versa. Certain configurations (like computer waiting for monitor AND monitor waiting for computer) can accidentally amplify stutter/frametimes, so it's nowadays relevant to always mention monitors, unlike the olden days where it was irrelevant. Metaphorically, this isn't Newtonian days of fixed-Hz yore of decades past. It is literally a complex Theory of Relativity with all kinds of new interactions of the newer co-operative monitor technologies. Some VRR technologies involve 2-way communications between PC and monitor, so if settings are configured incorrectly, weird stutter can appear too (Even when you thought VRR was turned off). This is the 2020s, where monitors have become active participants in the stutter calculus that sometimes shows up in frametime graphs. So I humbly request monitor/driver/game sync-technology data. Thank you!

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

19 Feb 2021, 17:23

BusterScrubbs wrote: ↑

19 Feb 2021, 17:05

Here's my hardware:
-ASrock B450 Steel Legend (new)
-Corsair RM 750x Gold (new)
-Ryzen 7 2700x
-GTX 1080ti (Also have a 1070 and 1060 which all experience the same issue)
-Crucial P2 M.2 2280 1TB (new and has OS + games on it. Less than 30% space used)
-A Kingston SATA SSD for other files
-A HDD with other files
-2x8gb Crucial Ballistix DDR4 3200mhz

You forgot to mention your monitor -- which monitor? Which sync technology settings? (monitor-side, driver-side, and game-side)

Explanation of importance before I answer your questions: Unlike the old days of yore, there is much more co-operation between graphics drivers and monitors (e.g. variable refresh rate subsystems such as FreeSync and G-SYNC) that can create unexpected interaction issues, because of the increased co-operative behaviour between computer and monitor, where the monitor actually waits for the computer, rather than vice-versa. Certain configurations (like computer waiting for monitor AND monitor waiting for computer) can accidentally amplify stutter/frametimes, so it's nowadays relevant to always mention monitors, unlike the olden days where it was irrelevant.

Ah, shoot; of course! Right now I am using some hot garbage: Dual Samsung 27" CF398 monitors. The one I ordered is the LG 27" UltraGear 27GL63T-B (there's...a budget here, lol).

Thanks for the explanation. Monitors are a really foreign thing to me, and until this stutter thing started, I was never sensitive to the myriad of graphical phenomena a crappy, 60hz monitor is accompanied by (apart from tearing). Now I can see every little thing and I am a changed woman. Suddenly, I care so much about this hahaha. Happy to learn more, though!

Preliminary Commentary
Deducing from your graph, you're using 60Hz + VSYNC ON in an attempt to smooth things out as much as possible.

Since you said you are buying G-SYNC (good move -- if you're fussy about single-frame drops, GSYNC does a beautiful job of fixing those), I have to assume you don't have VRR. Your graphs look like you're using VSYNC ON because you're picky about smoothness. If my assumptions are not flawed, then what you're witnessing is simply VSYNC misses + a potential game-specific cascade effect. Some games automatically create extra VSYNC buffers during a VSYNC miss, combined with drivers VSYNC, which can turn a 16ms frametime to a 50ms frametime spike but only for one specific game.

It could be asset-loading behaviors too (in conjunction), but you said you tested off a RAMdrive. Low CPU and GPU usage is quite interesting here, so if you're getting these weird frametime spikes that you are not getting elsewhere, try this trick:

Something To Try #1

1. Force game setting to VSYNC OFF (in-game menus)
2. Force driver setting to VSYNC ON (NVIDIA Control Panel)

This sometimes overrides' the game internal framebuffering logic, creating a different frametime workflow, possibly turning 16->50ms spikes into 16->33ms spikes instead.

Something To Try #2

1. Force game setting to VSYNC OFF (you can try both ways)
2. Force driver setting to VSYNC ON
3. Add an RTSS framerate cap of 59.9fps

The framerate cap transfers framebuffer backpressure between the game engine, the drivers and the RTSS software, helping to defeat a buggy game's framebuffer workflow management (that tries to override driver-based framebuffer workflow).

Something To Try #3

1. Force game setting to VSYNC OFF
2. Force driver setting to VSYNC OFF or Application Setting
3. Use RTSS Scanline Sync to hide tearlines off the top edge of the screen.

This is a variation of Suggestion #2

Something To Try #4

1. Enable G-SYNC
2. Force game setting to VSYNC OFF
3. Force driver setting to VSYNC ON
4. Use frame rate cap ~3fps below Hz (for >240Hz try ~5fps below Hz)

G-SYNC synchronizes monitor refreshing to frame rate. There's no such thing as a VSYNC miss on G-SYNC as long as your frame rate is running within VRR range. 60fps can safely become 59fps with frametimes staying in sync. Keeping game to VSYNC OFF (especially older games) allows it to use a frame processing workflow that is most compatible with G-SYNC / FreeSync.

Framerate changes can become perceptually seamless (no stutter during framerate change), as seen at www.testufo.com/vrr -- provided the game isn't doing dramatic frametime spikes like those (100ms). However, VSYNC OFF in the game's menus, usually solves that problem. Usually.

#4 usually produces best results for games like these -- unless they are flawed console ports that can't work properly at anything other than 60fps.

Unity Engine games are often flawed when the software developer misconfigures it. I helped a game developer (CloudPunk) solve this issue, see CloudPunk butter smooth update crediting Blur Busters at the bottom.

Oh, God. I haven't used a forum outside of Reddit in a very long time. Forgive me for the multi-posting mess here. I miss the part where mods have to approve. My b.

BusterScrubbs wrote: ↑

19 Feb 2021, 17:52

Oh, God. I haven't used a forum outside of Reddit in a very long time. Forgive me for the multi-posting mess here. I miss the part where mods have to approve. My b.

P.S. New users' 1st and 2nd posts go into a Moderation Queue (due to spammers). For this reason, please allow up to 24-48 hours for your messages to appear. After about 5 posts, users can post instantly (including images/links).

I checked your account. You can post immediately now.

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

19 Feb 2021, 17:47

Preliminary Commentary
Deducing from your graph, you're using 60Hz + VSYNC ON in an attempt to smooth things out as much as possible.

Since you said you are buying G-SYNC (good move -- if you're fussy about single-frame drops, GSYNC does a beautiful job of fixing those), I have to assume you don't have VRR. Your graphs look like you're using VSYNC ON because you're picky about smoothness. If my assumptions are not flawed, then what you're witnessing is simply VSYNC misses + a potential game-specific cascade effect. Some games automatically create extra VSYNC buffers during a VSYNC miss, combined with drivers VSYNC, which can turn a 16ms frametime to a 50ms frametime spike but only for one specific game.

It could be asset-loading behaviors too (in conjunction), but you said you tested off a RAMdrive. Low CPU and GPU usage is quite interesting here, so if you're getting these weird frametime spikes that you are not getting elsewhere, try this trick:

Something To Try #1

1. Force game setting to VSYNC OFF (in-game menus)
2. Force driver setting to VSYNC ON (NVIDIA Control Panel)

This sometimes overrides' the game internal framebuffering logic, creating a different frametime workflow, possibly turning 16->50ms spikes into 16->33ms spikes instead.

Something To Try #2

1. Force game setting to VSYNC OFF (you can try both ways)
2. Force driver setting to VSYNC ON
3. Add an RTSS framerate cap of 59.9fps

The framerate cap transfers framebuffer backpressure between the game engine, the drivers and the RTSS software, helping to defeat a buggy game's framebuffer workflow management (that tries to override driver-based framebuffer workflow).

Something To Try #3

1. Force game setting to VSYNC OFF
2. Force driver setting to VSYNC OFF or Application Setting
3. Use RTSS Scanline Sync to hide tearlines off the top edge of the screen.

This is a variation of Suggestion #2

Something To Try #4

1. Enable G-SYNC
2. Force game setting to VSYNC OFF
3. Force driver setting to VSYNC ON
4. Use frame rate cap ~3fps below Hz (for >240Hz try ~5fps below Hz)

G-SYNC synchronizes monitor refreshing to frame rate. There's no such thing as a VSYNC miss on G-SYNC as long as your frame rate is running within VRR range. 60fps can safely become 59fps with frametimes staying in sync. Keeping game to VSYNC OFF (especially older games) allows it to use a frame processing workflow that is most compatible with G-SYNC / FreeSync.

Framerate changes can become perceptually seamless (no stutter during framerate change), as seen at www.testufo.com/vrr -- provided the game isn't doing dramatic frametime spikes like those (100ms). However, VSYNC OFF in the game's menus, usually solves that problem. Usually.

#4 usually produces best results for games like these -- unless they are flawed console ports that can't work properly at anything other than 60fps.

I have tried multiple forms (adaptive/fast/etc) of vsync (in-game or via NVCP) with and without the use of frame caps from RTSS and in-game. I have seen your previous posts suggesting a cap ~3 less than hz. I've tried that and I think I actually have a video record of it (I thought about posting all of this here, but decided to wait until it possibly became relevant). I wish I had been a bit more diligent about documenting everything. My smoothest experience is by far using RTSS to cap w/ vsync (doesn't seem to make a difference if I cap 57, 60, 72, 100, 120, or 144 [all of which I have tried] in terms of the Big Spikes). I can definitely eliminate most frametime spikes, but I can't seem to change these huge ones in any consistent way.

I have not tried your #2 or #3, so I will give those a shot!

BusterScrubbs wrote: ↑

19 Feb 2021, 18:07

I have seen your previous posts suggesting a cap ~3 less than hz.

Be noted, the "3fps below Hz" is only for VRR. See Capping Differentials FAQ.

The Low-Lag VSYNC HOWTO (non-VRR) uses a fraction-of-Hz differential.

Yes, test out diametrically-opposing sync settings too.

VSYNC ON in drivers (NVIDIA Control Panel) while using VSYNC OFF in-game. And then add RTSS on top of this too.

Another thing to try is 120fps cap with game in VSYNC OFF mode or Fast Sync / Enhanced Sync.

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑

19 Feb 2021, 18:09

BusterScrubbs wrote: ↑

19 Feb 2021, 18:07

I have seen your previous posts suggesting a cap ~3 less than hz.

Be noted, the "3fps below Hz" is only for VRR. See Capping Differentials FAQ.

The Low-Lag VSYNC HOWTO (non-VRR) uses a fraction-of-Hz differential.

Yes, test out diametrically-opposing sync settings too.

VSYNC ON in drivers (NVIDIA Control Panel) while using VSYNC OFF in-game. And then add RTSS on top of this too.

Another thing to try is 120fps cap with game in VSYNC OFF mode or Fast Sync / Enhanced Sync.

Ah, gotcha; I misunderstood the 3fps below, for sure. Looking forward to the VSYNC read.
I am about to try your scanline sync suggestion.
As far as I know, outside of having a g-sync monitor, I have tried all other known sync options at this point.

Here's what the 59.9 cap w/ VSYNC in NVCP on (and no game option for it, so...off in-game). Additionally, this video shows exactly what it is like under any settings I've tried thus far:
....

Is there no way to share a video capture via link or file upload? I think it would possibly support my asset-load theory OR, at least, you can tell me if I am too picky/crazy or...it's inevitable. I'm really at the point where I feel a little comfort in gaslighting myself but man, I swear this didn't happen 2 weeks ago.

Oh, boy, it's also probably worth mentioning that it appears to happen in VR- I notice it in Beat Saber, which is actually the first game I noticed it in. This stutter devastates BS more than any other game since it absolutely makes me miss blocks . It happens when, what I describe as, "the next part of the song starts," like it has to load a new section. However, I've ran Afterburner while playing BS and it showed a lovely, flat n' steady frametime for the duration of the song; only spiking when in-menu. I wonder, though, if Afterburner is only monitoring the desktop's mirror which never projects the true HMD's experience??? Though...the menu spikes suggest otherwise?

For disposable troubleshoots, upload the video to a unlisted Youtube (easy with any existing gmail account) (or other video host) and paste the disposable link.

I’d love to see the video.