Blur Busters Forums

Hello,
I have a question about something.
I have a 360hz GSYNC monitor (got it as a gift). My PC build is for 240hz so I selected the 240hz option in the Nvidia control panel to make this monitor work as a 240hz one.
When I enter the game with FPS caped to 300 I have no screen tearing and everything works fine.
240hz monitor -> 300FPS cap -> GSYNC ON -> No tearing - perfect, working as it should work.
I decided to turn off GSYNC cause it adds abit of input lag and I just prefer to not have it on.
when I turn GSYNC OFF while being in the game, like.. I enter the game with GSYNC ON, tab out, turn it OFF, go back to the game application I notice the less input lag, and I have no tearing.
till now everything is perfect.
240hz monitor -> 300FPS cap -> GSYNC OFF -> NO tearing - less input lag.

BUT

When I log off the game, and open it while GSYNC is OFF in the nvidia control panel I notice tearing.
less input lag, but tearing (240hz -> 300fps cap).
so I know that if u have fps above ur refresh rate u should have tearing. but why its not the case when I turn off GSYNC while having the application open?!
weird right?

anyways, I dont want to turn GSYNC ON and OFF consistently. so I am trying to find a solution to play without screen tearing and also without GSYNC.

so what I tried is making my 360hz monitor work as a 360hz monitor by selecting this option in the nvidia control panel. I selected 360hz in game aswell but I left the FPS caped at 300 and I dont have screen tearing.
I assume its because im having less FPS than my refresh rate.
my question is:
if I play a game at 240-300FPS on my 360hz monitor, will I get input lag?
isnt my monitor waiting for 360 frames every second and if I send it 240fps only it displays the same frame more than once to reach 360 frames per second?
playing on 360hz resolution with 300 fps caped is an option to me as I dont have screen tearing this way but IDK about input lag.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

I have a 360hz GSYNC monitor (got it as a gift). My PC build is for 240hz so I selected the 240hz option in the Nvidia control panel to make this monitor work as a 240hz one.

Reducing your physical refresh rate below native will increase frame delivery time and the appearance of tearing artifacts, regardless of your system's achievable framerate.

Setting your monitor from 360Hz to 240Hz, for instance, slows scan in of each frame from 2.8ms per to 4.2ms per, and the screen will now refresh 120 times less per second.

There's virtually no reason to do this. Keep it at 360Hz if you want the most responsiveness.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

When I enter the game with FPS caped to 300 I have no screen tearing and everything works fine.
240hz monitor -> 300FPS cap -> GSYNC ON -> No tearing - perfect, working as it should work.

G-SYNC disengages whenever the framerate is above the refresh rate, so if you have G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off, it will just revert to tearing behavior at 240Hz 300 FPS.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

I decided to turn off GSYNC cause it adds abit of input lag and I just prefer to not have it on.

There is virtually zero input lag difference between G-SYNC on and G-SYNC off at 360Hz when the framerate is within the refresh rate.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

when I turn GSYNC OFF while being in the game, like.. I enter the game with GSYNC ON, tab out, turn it OFF, go back to the game application I notice the less input lag, and I have no tearing.
till now everything is perfect.
240hz monitor -> 300FPS cap -> GSYNC OFF -> NO tearing - less input lag.

BUT

When I log off the game, and open it while GSYNC is OFF in the nvidia control panel I notice tearing.
less input lag, but tearing (240hz -> 300fps cap).
so I know that if u have fps above ur refresh rate u should have tearing. but why its not the case when I turn off GSYNC while having the application open?!
weird right?

That's not weird at all. You have to restart the application for the new settings to fully take effect. That's why you're seeing what your seeing; you're trying to disable G-SYNC while the game is still running, but it doesn't because it needs to be restarted, and then when you quit and go back in, it applies since you kept it off.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

anyways, I dont want to turn GSYNC ON and OFF consistently. so I am trying to find a solution to play without screen tearing and also without GSYNC.

It's not possible to have no screen tearing without a syncing method enabled. G-SYNC is the lowest input lag no-tear method available. Any lower input lag requires tearing.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

so what I tried is making my 360hz monitor work as a 360hz monitor by selecting this option in the nvidia control panel. I selected 360hz in game aswell but I left the FPS caped at 300 and I dont have screen tearing.
I assume its because im having less FPS than my refresh rate.

If you still had G-SYNC on in that scenario, yes, it will prevent tearing within the refresh rate. 300 FPS is within the 360Hz refresh rate, as opposed to 300 FPS at 240Hz, which isn't within that refresh rate. Again, G-SYNC only works within the refresh rate.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

my question is:
if I play a game at 240-300FPS on my 360hz monitor, will I get input lag?

240-300 FPS at 360Hz with G-SYNC or no sync is lower lag than 240-300 FPS at 240Hz.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

isnt my monitor waiting for 360 frames every second and if I send it 240fps only it displays the same frame more than once to reach 360 frames per second?

That only applies if you have standard, standalone V-SYNC enabled, which forces the GPU output to deliver in the fixed intervals of the display. This does not happen with G-SYNC (which instead dynamically syncs the display to the GPU output) or no sync (which doesn't sync anything at all, and tears instead).

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

playing on 360hz resolution with 300 fps caped is an option to me as I dont have screen tearing this way but IDK about input lag.

360Hz input lag is ridiculously low whether you use a syncing method or not.

jorimt wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 11:47

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

I have a 360hz GSYNC monitor (got it as a gift). My PC build is for 240hz so I selected the 240hz option in the Nvidia control panel to make this monitor work as a 240hz one.

Reducing your physical refresh rate below native will increase frame delivery time and the appearance of tearing artifacts, regardless of your system's achievable framerate.

Setting your monitor from 360Hz to 240Hz, for instance, slows scan in of each frame from 2.8ms per to 4.2ms per, and the screen will now refresh 120 times less per second.

There's virtually no reason to do this. Keep it at 360Hz if you want the most responsiveness.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

When I enter the game with FPS caped to 300 I have no screen tearing and everything works fine.
240hz monitor -> 300FPS cap -> GSYNC ON -> No tearing - perfect, working as it should work.

G-SYNC disengages whenever the framerate is above the refresh rate, so if you have G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off, it will just revert to tearing behavior at 240Hz 300 FPS.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

I decided to turn off GSYNC cause it adds abit of input lag and I just prefer to not have it on.

There is virtually zero input lag difference between G-SYNC on and G-SYNC off at 360Hz when the framerate is within the refresh rate.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

when I turn GSYNC OFF while being in the game, like.. I enter the game with GSYNC ON, tab out, turn it OFF, go back to the game application I notice the less input lag, and I have no tearing.
till now everything is perfect.
240hz monitor -> 300FPS cap -> GSYNC OFF -> NO tearing - less input lag.

BUT

When I log off the game, and open it while GSYNC is OFF in the nvidia control panel I notice tearing.
less input lag, but tearing (240hz -> 300fps cap).
so I know that if u have fps above ur refresh rate u should have tearing. but why its not the case when I turn off GSYNC while having the application open?!
weird right?

That's not weird at all. You have to restart the application for the new settings to fully take effect. That's why you're seeing what your seeing; you're trying to disable G-SYNC while the game is still running, but it doesn't because it needs to be restarted, and then when you quit and go back in, it applies since you kept it off.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

anyways, I dont want to turn GSYNC ON and OFF consistently. so I am trying to find a solution to play without screen tearing and also without GSYNC.

It's not possible to have no screen tearing without a syncing method enabled. G-SYNC is the lowest input lag no-tear method available. Any lower input lag requires tearing.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

so what I tried is making my 360hz monitor work as a 360hz monitor by selecting this option in the nvidia control panel. I selected 360hz in game aswell but I left the FPS caped at 300 and I dont have screen tearing.
I assume its because im having less FPS than my refresh rate.

If you still had G-SYNC on in that scenario, yes, it will prevent tearing within the refresh rate. 300 FPS is within the 360Hz refresh rate, as opposed to 300 FPS at 240Hz, which isn't within that refresh rate. Again, G-SYNC only works within the refresh rate.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

my question is:
if I play a game at 240-300FPS on my 360hz monitor, will I get input lag?

240-300 FPS at 360Hz with G-SYNC or no sync is lower lag than 240-300 FPS at 240Hz.

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

isnt my monitor waiting for 360 frames every second and if I send it 240fps only it displays the same frame more than once to reach 360 frames per second?

That only applies if you have standard, standalone V-SYNC enabled, which forces the GPU output to deliver in the fixed intervals of the display. This does not happen with G-SYNC (which instead dynamically syncs the display to the GPU output) or no sync (which doesn't sync anything at all, and tears instead).

Roy wrote: ↑

02 Oct 2021, 07:37

playing on 360hz resolution with 300 fps caped is an option to me as I dont have screen tearing this way but IDK about input lag.

360Hz input lag is ridiculously low whether you use a syncing method or not.

G-sync adds lag it's not virtually zero (It sounds nit picky but we don't say that when referring to CPU's cache latencies). Just use a stable system that has lower latency. stop circle jerking about FPS & refresh rates.

Eonds wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2021, 07:49

G-sync adds lag it's not virtually zero

G-sync doesn't add lag. It has been proven time and time again.

Eonds wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2021, 07:49

G-sync adds lag it's not virtually zero (It sounds nit picky but we don't say that when referring to CPU's cache latencies).

The only lag G-SYNC "adds" is directly from hiding the tearline, nothing more, and it's technically not an "addition," since it's adhering to the native scanout time of the display, which is what single, tear-free frame delivery speed is limited by.

Tearing is a form of input lag reduction as well, one that many prefer to opt out of due to the very appearance of the artifact that allows the reduction, and something the OP was specifically asking about; avoiding screen tearing.

If you've heard of Scanline Sync, which is a no sync form of "V-SYNC," so to speak, G-SYNC is the superior (dynamic) version of that. It steers the tearline off-screen without forcing the GPU to deliver in fixed intervals of the display like traditional V-SYNC does, which is the only thing that causes V-SYNC input lag and stutter in the first place; the GPU output syncing to the display.

At 360Hz, crosshair-level "lag" is indeed virtually identical with G-SYNC on/off (assuming all other settings in both scenarios are the same but for that) at the same framerate within the refresh rate.

Eonds wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2021, 07:49

Just use a stable system that has lower latency. stop circle jerking about FPS & refresh rates.

I find it odd you're suggesting we ignore the most obvious and easy-to-fix forms of latency and focus solely on the most elusive and difficult to objectively measure and achieve, and only call the latter worth pursuing. I believe we should instead address the former first and work our way down. I.E. start with macro, end with micro.

For instance, going by some of your recent posts on this forum, are you suggesting it's perfectly fine to ignore substantial latency increases due directly to things such as average FPS, max refresh rate, the render queue, and traditional syncing methods (such as double and triple buffer V-SYNC, which can add frames of delay if not properly configured), and limit ourselves to something like 60Hz with uncapped FPS (V-SYNC on or off) so long as we're running certain legacy CPU models with an OS, bios, and (DDR3) RAM that are tuned to the nth degree?

Even no sync with an uncapped FPS can have 2 full frames more delay (that's 33.2ms at 60 FPS, for instance) if the system is GPU-limited at any point. And just going from 60Hz with a 60 FPS average to 120Hz with a 120 FPS average (not considering any form of sync or GPU-limitation-related delay) reduces average latency by 8.3ms, and that's just from the render time and scanout cycle time reduction.

Achievable average FPS and max refresh rate are kind of a big deal where latency is concerned. In fact, they're the primary path to guaranteed native latency reduction.

The higher the refresh rate, the less tearing artifacts are visible as well, regardless of framerate, which means the less "need" for syncing methods, even G-SYNC. In fact, at 1000Hz, syncing methods will effectively no longer be needed for tearing prevention due to that refresh rate's sheer scanout speed.

Most of your suggested (micro) tweaks (which, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking) may reduce latency by 1 to sub-milliseconds on average (and thus would instead tend to provide an increased feeling of consistency—another important metric—more than a notable latency reduction), while those like mine (macro) reduce it by dozens of milliseconds or more, and with much less effort required by the end-user.

I try to avoid any unnecessarily confrontational interactions like this, but if you're going to address me directly with such dismissive comments, perspective please; there's a place for both micro and macro. It's all part of one bigger latency picture.

jorimt wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2021, 09:07

Eonds wrote: ↑

05 Oct 2021, 07:49

G-sync adds lag it's not virtually zero (It sounds nit picky but we don't say that when referring to CPU's cache latencies).

The only lag G-SYNC "adds" is directly from hiding the tearline, nothing more, and it's technically not an "addition," since it's adhering to the native scanout time of the display, which is what single, tear-free frame delivery speed is limited by.

To be fair, I think there's also common misreading happening. The statement "does not add lag" can compute as "there's more delay due to the cost of tearing-free gameplay" thus -> add lag. When in reality it is just as you say, not decreasing inputlag further at the cost of tearing. You're also spot on with the message about other forms of lag becoming significantly more important in the chain at a certain point (especially clearer visuals.) There are also arguments to be made about older g-sync modules and/or older freesync variants bleeding in. But the 360Hz G-Sync module is obviously next gen (I've owned an AW2521H for a while now.) It's not adding lag and funnily enough, you can allow G-Sync to tear / have "microtearing." by simply running the G-Sync + V Sync off combination. There won't be an additional optimization done for better pacing (within range even!)

I've been running G-Sync + V Sync off for a good while now in a good broad of Esport titles, at 360Hz, it's fantastic. Obviously as you also said, for many competitive gamers the slight sample and hold style "feeling" of lag tied to the max scanout possible / (blanking interval) at i.e 144Hz (6.9ms) and even 240Hz (4.16ms) can cause the slight sluggish feeling to a few competitive players which might have turned them away (plus slightly misconstrued input lag tests as well.)

360Hz+ VRR is truly a golden grail in this regard. It's just smooth. To me, it sounds like the person in the post is most likely running G-Sync + V-Sync on, I'd recommend trying V-Sync off variant and capping at a stable framerate. There's a really weird timing change that occurs when ticking G-Sync + V-Sync on within range on the 360Hz+ Obviously, V-Sync isn't engaging until out of range - but I'm confident there's a different frame pacing method entirely in play that feels visually very smooth, but slightly unresponsive. Everything is kind of "slowed down." But it's not a good feeling to play, despite the weird improved visuals.

Anyways, half rambling, half info. VRR needs to stop being demonized in these higher Hz panels, it's really good technology especially when paired up with a stable framerate limiter - you will not get much smoother games then that outside of a super well tuned strobing/bfi display with glassfloor frametimes at high refresh rate. That's a pipe dream for now though. (Well, I'm sure that the XV252QF could QFT Vertical Total "hack" from 390Hz to whatever stable framerate, i.e 180 and then customize the strobing with that mode + scanline sync for a fantastic result. My 360Hz has an absurdly high VT possible for i.e 60Hz

diakou wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2021, 16:45

The statement "does not add lag" can compute as "there's more delay due to the cost of tearing-free gameplay" thus -> add lag. When in reality it is just as you say, not decreasing inputlag further at the cost of tearing.

Correct, as stated in my article, latency-wise, G-SYNC is technically neutral (when properly configured), whereas no sync can be viewed as a "negative" reduction (it "cheats" the scanout, so to speak).

diakou wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2021, 16:45

Obviously as you also said, for many competitive gamers the slight sample and hold style "feeling" of lag tied to the max scanout possible / (blanking interval) at i.e 144Hz (6.9ms) and even 240Hz (4.16ms) can cause the slight sluggish feeling to a few competitive players which might have turned them away (plus slightly misconstrued input lag tests as well.)

[...]

There's a really weird timing change that occurs when ticking G-Sync + V-Sync on within range on the 360Hz+ Obviously, V-Sync isn't engaging until out of range - but I'm confident there's a different frame pacing method entirely in play that feels visually very smooth, but slightly unresponsive. Everything is kind of "slowed down." But it's not a good feeling to play, despite the weird improved visuals.

Even if the average latency doesn't actually change in some scenarios between G-SYNC + V-SYNC and no sync, they can feel different at the same framerate (yes, even at 240Hz+), and this is simply because they deliver frames differently . As such, G-SYNC + V-SYNC can definitely feel "weird" to players who are used to no sync only, and many will mistake this for increased latency in like-for-like scenarios.

diakou wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2021, 16:45

VRR needs to stop being demonized in these higher Hz panels, it's really good technology especially when paired up with a stable framerate limiter - you will not get much smoother games then that outside of a super well tuned strobing/bfi display with glassfloor frametimes at high refresh rate. That's a pipe dream for now though.

On this, I for one honestly have never even particularly recommend G-SYNC for anything, let alone comp. I only recommend the settings that should be used when it's enabled, though I do personally prefer to use G-SYNC myself.

It's an option, and as such, preference between it and no sync reins supreme, especially at the higher refresh rates where G-SYNC and no sync become more and more equalized.

Players that own a G-SYNC capable display should try both and see what they prefer. I am anything but a zealot or prosthelytizer for G-SYNC, and I'm not certain where some of these commenters ever get that idea. I discuss G-SYNC because I've studied on it, written on it, and people continue to ask about it, and since few know it's inner workings as well as I and a couple others do, I oblige where I can, simple as that.

diakou wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2021, 16:45

(Well, I'm sure that the XV252QF could QFT Vertical Total "hack" from 390Hz to whatever stable framerate, i.e 180 and then customize the strobing with that mode + scanline sync for a fantastic result. My 360Hz has an absurdly high VT possible for i.e 60Hz

Nice.

jorimt, I couldnt ask for a better answer.
thank you very much.

Roy wrote: ↑

08 Oct 2021, 12:16

jorimt, I couldnt ask for a better answer.
thank you very much.

No worries, @Roy