Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

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Shade7
Posts: 222
Joined: 25 May 2022, 18:44

Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by Shade7 » 05 Feb 2023, 02:24

Vocaleyes wrote:
04 Feb 2023, 20:14
Concluding a days worth of testing, it is a huge step in the right direction but not an entire fix. Also for the life of me am unable to launch nvcp now, despite uninstalling and reinstalling. Also when tried to reinstall gpu driver, pc hung and had to force restart. So that’s a bit wonky.
You tried DDU obviously, right?

Noticed you mentioned Valorant. Didn't see you mention it yet, but confirming just in case that you are using Raw Input Buffer enabled for the 8K mouse. Overall, I think Valorant is probably not the best game to test these kinds of issues on (this is coming from someone who only plays Valorant right now, and only tests stuff for Valorant- LOL) The game itself has so many strange issues and interactions with different PC components, OS settings, background, 3rd party software, etc. Not to mention, "Simulated" (prediction system based) gameplay, very high CPU usage, extensive anti-cheat, and a launcher that's greedy for resources in order for the game to function smoothly.

I'm very interested in seeing these changes in the preview channel. Might give it a shot sometime this weekend.

Vocaleyes
Posts: 286
Joined: 09 Nov 2021, 18:10

Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by Vocaleyes » 05 Feb 2023, 10:10

I didn’t use DDU, Using profile inspector to negate nvcp not launching for now. Will cross the driver bridge when I need to, but for now I’m ok to wait, I’m sure any bugs like this will be reported and fixed using feedback hub before live release.

Also valorant raw input was mentioned in my post.

My consensus is that mouse panning in all of the games I’ve tested is less sluggish, it is definitely worth giving this build a try.

masneb
Posts: 239
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 03:04

Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by masneb » 06 Feb 2023, 23:41

timecard wrote:
04 Feb 2023, 11:11
Someone shared this recently in a discord i'm in, maybe related to this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comm ... _in_games/

In brief all windows versions up until now don't handle raw input efficiently when dealing with multiple raw input subscribers, if you have 10 programs all subscribing to raw input, it'll send all the data to each of them which makes computer performance worst when using higher HZ mice. The solution they were testing is to only send 125hz data to background apps and then give full 1000msg a sec to the foreground app.

According to the post this applies to all versions of windows and this change is consider a feature because the way it works was otherwise planned/expected in older versions of windows. I have asked the Reddit OP to see if there's plans to add this feature to Win10 but no reply yet.

As for identifying how many raw input subscribers there are for further discovery and investigation, I spoke with the Reddit OP and there's custom ETW trace providers in Win11 Insiders edition that can give you this information.

When using the "windows insider dev channel" you can get more relevant information by:

Code: Select all

Collect a UIF trace under Input & Language > Mouse and look at the diagnostic data, you can poke around at what's collected, but again the details may change from release to release
Very cool post, there was a lot of stuff I'd liked to have added to that reddit thread, but it's closed now. There needs to be some easily accessible way of accessing this information in addition to it being pushed back to W10. There is a lot of garbage/feature bloat in Windows that's being collected over time and it's all culminated in the mess we have today.

For instance being unable to see how many overlays exist and have access to your DX stack. Poorly made overlays can absolutely destroy performance of games when they hook in and cause a bunch of issues, why I go out of my way to turn them off if I find them, yet they creep in with program updates like your LED software and you never even know.

Vocaleyes
Posts: 286
Joined: 09 Nov 2021, 18:10

Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by Vocaleyes » 13 Feb 2023, 21:54

Just a heads up, since the windows update am able to run Valorant with 8k polling with 0 issues and rinput beta disabled, whereas before 8k would cause extreme stuttering.

timecard
Posts: 65
Joined: 25 Jan 2020, 01:10

Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by timecard » 14 Feb 2023, 22:37

masneb wrote:
06 Feb 2023, 23:41
There needs to be some easily accessible way of accessing this information in addition to it being pushed back to W10.
I eventually spoke with the OP of the reddit post, he pretty much said it's highly unliked to make its way to Win10 since it's a feature vs a bug (expected behavior), and it's hard to get new features pushed to older OS unlike security fixes etc.
masneb wrote:
06 Feb 2023, 23:41
Poorly made overlays can absolutely destroy performance of games when they hook in and cause a bunch of issues
Steam overlay is one of those things enabled vs disabled, feels very different for me ingame. And look at all the things it hooks when globally disabled. (below) In my opinion this just adds more variables, but I can understand why a developer might do it, it's easier to "disable the overlay toggle" than to not inject at all. Even when it's "disabled" the fact it states in the log that it has to clear an input buffer because it's filling up too quick is a little concerning. Not saying it causes issues but it's probably not what people would expect when they "disable something".

Code: Select all

Example of Steam overlay injections even though it's disabled in steam settings globally and on the game I play. 

You can check for yourself in the log below, I made a steam support ticket about it and pretty much said you should ask others on steamcommunity vs getting a real response.

Log file: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\GameOverlayRenderer.log

Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Module file name: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\gameoverlayrenderer.dll
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Hooking SetCursorPos, GetCursorPos, ShowCursor, SetCursor, and GetCursor
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Game is using dxgi (dx10/dx11), preparing to hook.
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Game is using ddraw.dll (dx7 or lower)... hooking.
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Game is using opengl32.dll... hooking.
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Game is using opengl32.dll... hooking.
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Game is using dinput.dll (dinput7), preparing to hook.
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Game is using dinput8, preparing to hook.
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - CoCreateInstance hook created DirectInput8 interface 00FE01A8
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - XInput Hooked XInputEnable Version 14
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - XInput Hooked XInputGetAudioDeviceIds Version 14
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - XInput Hooked XInputGetBatteryInformation Version 14
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - XInput Hooked XInputGetCapabilities Version 14
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - XInput Hooked XInputGetKeystroke Version 14
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - XInput Hooked XInputGetState Version 14
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - XInput Hooked XInputGetStateEX Version 14
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - XInput Hooked XInputSetState Version 14
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - CoCreateInstance hook created DirectInput8 interface 00FE0058
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Registering HWND 002F023A for device notifications
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Initializing Audio...
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Trying to setup input hook...
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Set input hook...
Tue Feb 14 03:46:49 2023 UTC - Audio hooked
Tue Feb 14 03:46:59 2023 UTC - Disabling overlay for 2 seconds (10 seconds since last frame from ui process was seen)
Tue Feb 14 03:47:01 2023 UTC - Disabling overlay for 2 seconds (12 seconds since last frame from ui process was seen)
Tue Feb 14 04:15:23 2023 UTC - Clearing input stream because it is about to overflow
[...]
Tue Feb 14 04:16:49 2023 UTC - Disabling overlay for 20 minutes (1800 seconds since last frame from ui process was seen)

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imprecise
Posts: 277
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Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by imprecise » 15 Feb 2023, 14:55

timecard wrote:
04 Feb 2023, 11:11
Someone shared this recently in a discord i'm in, maybe related to this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comm ... _in_games/

In brief all windows versions up until now don't handle raw input efficiently when dealing with multiple raw input subscribers, if you have 10 programs all subscribing to raw input, it'll send all the data to each of them which makes computer performance worst when using higher HZ mice. The solution they were testing is to only send 125hz data to background apps and then give full 1000msg a sec to the foreground app.

According to the post this applies to all versions of windows and this change is consider a feature because the way it works was otherwise planned/expected in older versions of windows. I have asked the Reddit OP to see if there's plans to add this feature to Win10 but no reply yet.

As for identifying how many raw input subscribers there are for further discovery and investigation, I spoke with the Reddit OP and there's custom ETW trace providers in Win11 Insiders edition that can give you this information.

When using the "windows insider dev channel" you can get more relevant information by:

Code: Select all

Collect a UIF trace under Input & Language > Mouse and look at the diagnostic data, you can poke around at what's collected, but again the details may change from release to release
I'm thinking this is the major thing Windows changed that introduced all these problems in the last few years. Multiplane trying to track the mouse in multiple planes simultaneously with poor control over which plane should have priority. And we had other applications updating to comply with the new MPO system, like Steam, Discord, Epic, etc. so now they're all competing for input tracking priority with the game. I'm sure anticheat programs are also designed around this, so that's even more interference working against smooth tracking and accurate server/client synchronization. We used to be able to disable fullscreen optimization easily, but Steam took away that ability. I think if you want the best competitive gaming experience, you pretty much have to run an older Windows 10 build with fullscreen optimizations disabled, or Windows 7, and older video drivers that aren't reliant on MPO design (pre-460 for nvidia). There are other considerations with the newer builds too, like network card being overloaded in a similar fashion by constant reporting back to Microsoft.

DPRTMELR
Posts: 165
Joined: 12 Apr 2022, 13:42

Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by DPRTMELR » 15 Feb 2023, 18:41

masneb wrote:
31 Dec 2022, 02:23
Hello, I've been messing around with 8khz on my mouse as I have been after buying it a few years ago. Obviously some games don't respond well to 8khz and sometimes you need a in between setting, however reviews I've seen of the mouse mention you need to run it at USB 3. I have it plugged into a USB 3.1 hub (internal) and all on it's own, but it doesn't run faster then USB 2. I've tried a few different internal hubs including moving it to the USB-C and it never goes above USB 2.0 speeds according to HWINFO.

Is HWINFO bugged or is this a issue on my system? Anyone else confirm this. I've done some googling before hand there doesn't seem to be that many people who even bother looking into stuff like this.

Capture.JPG

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/raze ... -8k/6.html
It's normal, marketing team prob didn't get the right memos.
anyway to save you some time with your future weekends, the answer to all your future problem is a simple pcie usb host card dedicated for your mouse. (prob a solid idea for regular 1k mouse as well)
Most adults need 7-8 hours of sleep each night. - US FDA

masneb
Posts: 239
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 03:04

Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by masneb » 18 Feb 2023, 00:22

imprecise wrote:
15 Feb 2023, 14:55
I'm thinking this is the major thing Windows changed that introduced all these problems in the last few years. Multiplane trying to track the mouse in multiple planes simultaneously with poor control over which plane should have priority. And we had other applications updating to comply with the new MPO system, like Steam, Discord, Epic, etc. so now they're all competing for input tracking priority with the game. I'm sure anticheat programs are also designed around this, so that's even more interference working against smooth tracking and accurate server/client synchronization. We used to be able to disable fullscreen optimization easily, but Steam took away that ability. I think if you want the best competitive gaming experience, you pretty much have to run an older Windows 10 build with fullscreen optimizations disabled, or Windows 7, and older video drivers that aren't reliant on MPO design (pre-460 for nvidia). There are other considerations with the newer builds too, like network card being overloaded in a similar fashion by constant reporting back to Microsoft.
Yeah, I wouldn't ever go back to W7. There is way too much that has changed since then to make it a meaningful transition. Valve had the right idea with the SteamOS, but the wrong idea to use Nix. At this point it's pretty clear that Microsoft doesn't really care about gamers and I would probably go to W11 if it meant that we'd get 'features' that unbreak things they broke in the past. MPO is definitely broken and it's a noticeable difference turning it off. It's not even easy to verify it's completely off, even when the registry value is changed (it will still display multiple MPOs in DX full report). Once again almost no one measures or attempts to test this stuff in a scientific way, not 'hey look I ran crysis three times in my bloated OS, while changing stuff in the background'. That being said most techtubers aren't even good at testing hardware.

I tried to get in touch with the reddit guy from the post and asked him to make a thread here so he could get much more user feedback, he didn't respond. So my guess is it sounded like a good idea to ask for feedback, but after receiving it decided it was too much work.
DPRTMELR wrote:
15 Feb 2023, 18:41
It's normal, marketing team prob didn't get the right memos.
anyway to save you some time with your future weekends, the answer to all your future problem is a simple pcie usb host card dedicated for your mouse. (prob a solid idea for regular 1k mouse as well)
It wasn't just from the marketing team, there is a measured difference in testing USB 3 vs USB 2 in the link I provided. It's pretty rare for really anyone who tests peripherals to actually do any sort of measured objective testing, it's all qualitative while reiterating the back of the box stats.

DPRTMELR
Posts: 165
Joined: 12 Apr 2022, 13:42

Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by DPRTMELR » 18 Feb 2023, 18:24

DPRTMELR wrote:
15 Feb 2023, 18:41
It's normal, marketing team prob didn't get the right memos.
anyway to save you some time with your future weekends, the answer to all your future problem is a simple pcie usb host card dedicated for your mouse. (prob a solid idea for regular 1k mouse as well)

It wasn't just from the marketing team, there is a measured difference in testing USB 3 vs USB 2 in the link I provided. It's pretty rare for really anyone who tests peripherals to actually do any sort of measured objective testing, it's all qualitative while reiterating the back of the box stats.
I always figured that part meant he used the same usb port but flipped things to ehci mode, not that he found a dedicated usb 2.0 port which is a rare thing to find, you should comment or msg the author for clarification if anything.
Most adults need 7-8 hours of sleep each night. - US FDA

Bloedboer
Posts: 26
Joined: 14 Nov 2021, 07:43

Re: Viper 8Khz Not Running at USB 3.0

Post by Bloedboer » 20 Feb 2023, 13:05

Tried the mentioned build and so far so good. Anyone knows when they will release these changes to the public builds?

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