oled vs 120hz Plasma Motion Clarity

[jman54]

I found a forum that mentioned overclocking plasma tvs was possible and since they are relatively cheap, I'm thinking about seeking one out to try this. Do you think a plasma tv at 120hz would have significantly better motion than oled at 120hz with bfi? I think they should be about equal because I remember reading plasma tvs have 4ms persistence phosphors, but I am not sure if overclocking affects the phosphor fade time because while it would seem like it wouldn't, I don't know if the phosphor persistence is 4 ms because it is provided energy for a set duration at 60hz or if it innately has that persistence so that even at 120hz it wouldn't change the clarity.

[Chief Blur Buster]

I found a forum that mentioned overclocking plasma tvs was possible and since they are relatively cheap, I'm thinking about seeking one out to try this. Do you think a plasma tv at 120hz would have significantly better motion than oled at 120hz with bfi? I think they should be about equal because I remember reading plasma tvs have 4ms persistence phosphors, but I am not sure if overclocking affects the phosphor fade time because while it would seem like it wouldn't, I don't know if the phosphor persistence is 4 ms because it is provided energy for a set duration at 60hz or if it innately has that persistence so that even at 120hz it wouldn't change the clarity.

The LG CX BFI is very plasma competitive, as are 240Hz OLEDs too.

However, not all 120Hz LG TVs can achieve as low as 4ms MPRT, so be careful which LG panel you buy. Some panels including LG CX actually could do subrefresh BFI, unlike some of the others. Subrefresh BFI (MPRTs less than maxHz refreshtime) is not a feature of all OLEDs!

There are also upcoming LG OLEDs with 2ms persistence (the 31.5" 4K240Hz with 1080p480Hz mode that is available at CES 2024), so that already goes past plasma persistence, under these two conditions:
- Frametime of 2ms (aka 480fps 480Hz)
- Pulsetime of 2ms (aka one one visible frame per series of black frames, e.g. 8:1 BFI for "60Hz")

Persistence (sample and hold motion blur) is pixel visibility time, and that's frametime for sample and hold, or pulsetime for impulsed.

[tong]

I found a forum that mentioned overclocking plasma tvs was possible and since they are relatively cheap, I'm thinking about seeking one out to try this. Do you think a plasma tv at 120hz would have significantly better motion than oled at 120hz with bfi? I think they should be about equal because I remember reading plasma tvs have 4ms persistence phosphors, but I am not sure if overclocking affects the phosphor fade time because while it would seem like it wouldn't, I don't know if the phosphor persistence is 4 ms because it is provided energy for a set duration at 60hz or if it innately has that persistence so that even at 120hz it wouldn't change the clarity.

The LG CX BFI is very plasma competitive, as are 240Hz OLEDs too.

However, not all 120Hz LG TVs can achieve as low as 4ms MPRT, so be careful which LG panel you buy. Some panels including LG CX actually could do subrefresh BFI, unlike some of the others. Subrefresh BFI (MPRTs less than maxHz refreshtime) is not a feature of all OLEDs!

There are also upcoming LG OLEDs with 2ms persistence (the 31.5" 4K240Hz with 1080p480Hz mode that is available at CES 2024), so that already goes past plasma persistence, under these two conditions:
- Frametime of 2ms (aka 480fps 480Hz)
- Pulsetime of 2ms (aka one one visible frame per series of black frames, e.g. 8:1 BFI for "60Hz")

Persistence (sample and hold motion blur) is pixel visibility time, and that's frametime for sample and hold, or pulsetime for impulsed.

Is this subrefresh on OLEDs performed by the means of Rolling Scan? I recall that's how the CX/C1 managed 120hz BFI without being capable of 240hz.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Is this subrefresh on OLEDs performed by the means of Rolling Scan? I recall that's how the CX/C1 managed 120hz BFI without being capable of 240hz.

Specifically subrefresh rolling scan -- yes.

(Not to be confused with non-BFI / non-subrefresh rolling scan, www.blurbusters.com/scanout ...)

[hammelgammler]

Just wanted to ask again, as the question is still open for me. We know with proof that some Plasmas (e.g. the VT50) is capable of 1280x720 @ 120Hz without skipping any frames, does this result in a lot lower persistence or is Plasma really limited by the phosphors?

Supposedly there also the PF50, which might be even possible to run at 1920x1080 @ 90Hz, although I highly doubt it’s not skipping frames. At least on my PF30 every custom resolution is skipping frames, as I cannot enable the 3D feature, which you need to do in the VT50 to not skip frames. But would 90Hz be the sweet spot in terms of persistence for Plasmas?

I ask this, because from what I read we have the following persistence values:

- Plasma @ 60Hz ~= 4ms
- LG CX @ 60Hz BFI ~= 4ms
- LG CX @ 120Hz BFI ~= 4ms

Would a Plasma @ 120Hz be at ~= 2ms or would it be not much lower that that regardless because of the slow phosphor speed?

In theory I’m strictly looking for the best retro display outside of a CRT, as the FW900 is just impossible to get. If the persistence is the same, then the bonus of 4K and being able to use a RetroTink4k with all its features might be the better experience of the two, as in terms of brightness there’s also not a huge difference. Also Plasma are loud (fans, buzzing noise) and draw a lot of power.

Also in terms of input lag, the CX should be even better than a Plasma, at least the consumer ones, which are pretty high with supposedly like 30-50ms depending on the model. The CX with BFI was around 20ms I think.

Thanks!

[NeonPizza]

Just wanted to ask again, as the question is still open for me. We know with proof that some Plasmas (e.g. the VT50) is capable of 1280x720 @ 120Hz without skipping any frames, does this result in a lot lower persistence or is Plasma really limited by the phosphors?

Supposedly there also the PF50, which might be even possible to run at 1920x1080 @ 90Hz, although I highly doubt it’s not skipping frames. At least on my PF30 every custom resolution is skipping frames, as I cannot enable the 3D feature, which you need to do in the VT50 to not skip frames. But would 90Hz be the sweet spot in terms of persistence for Plasmas?

I ask this, because from what I read we have the following persistence values:

- Plasma @ 60Hz ~= 4ms
- LG CX @ 60Hz BFI ~= 4ms
- LG CX @ 120Hz BFI ~= 4ms

Would a Plasma @ 120Hz be at ~= 2ms or would it be not much lower that that regardless because of the slow phosphor speed?

In theory I’m strictly looking for the best retro display outside of a CRT, as the FW900 is just impossible to get. If the persistence is the same, then the bonus of 4K and being able to use a RetroTink4k with all its features might be the better experience of the two, as in terms of brightness there’s also not a huge difference. Also Plasma are loud (fans, buzzing noise) and draw a lot of power.

Thanks!

The size probably won't cut it, but a 32" QD-OLED Monitor (240hz 'MSI UPX) paired with a RetroTINK4K will give you that 4ms persistence(75% motion blur reduction)

Next year, supposedly we're getting 180/200hz QD-OLED TV's. 180hz is compatible with TINK4K, which is a 5ms persistence(66% blur reduction). I personally can't go back to WOLED. The colours don't cut the mustard for me personally and the black crushing isn't fixable unless you hire a pro calibrater. dated tech imo.

If i couldn't go QD-OLED, i'd probably just go for the Hisense U8N QD-MIni LED and call it a day. Viewing angles suck, the motion response time will be a little slower. But the QD-Colours are good(Not AS good as QD-OLED mind you.), Black levels approach OLED territory, ABL is less aggressive, there's no chance of burn in, and SDR game mode can get much brighter. Local Dimming is a bit annoying though, since brighter objects on a black back ground can dim. I'm guessing this is because of it's lighting zone transitions, plus subtle blooming too.

[hammelgammler]

The size probably won't cut it, but a 32" QD-OLED Monitor (240hz 'MSI UPX) paired with a RetroTINK4K will give you that 4ms persistence(75% motion blur reduction)

Next year, supposedly we're getting 180/200hz QD-OLED TV's. 180hz is compatible with TINK4K, which is a 5ms persistence(66% blur reduction). I personally can't go back to WOLED. The colours don't cut the mustard for me personally and the black crushing isn't fixable unless you hire a pro calibrater. dated tech imo.

If i couldn't go QD-OLED, i'd probably just go for the Hisense U8N QD-MIni LED and call it a day. Viewing angles suck, the motion response time will be a little slower. But the QD-Colours are good(Not AS good as QD-OLED mind you.), Black levels approach OLED territory, ABL is less aggressive, there's no chance of burn in, and SDR game mode can get much brighter. Local Dimming is a bit annoying though, since brighter objects on a black back ground can dim. I'm guessing this is because of it's lighting zone transitions, plus subtle blooming too.

Thanks for the answer, but that doesn’t really answer my main question regarding Plasma vs CX.

Sadly I can’t go back to anything smaller than 42” for gaming. Also I’m strictly wanting the best 60Hz experience, as for anything >60FPS I will be using my Samsung S90C (QD-OLED, 144Hz, 2000nits peak brightness). The CRT-Beam-Simulator looks extremely promising and will be undoubtedly the best alternative in the future, but we are not here yet.

Also regarding colors I’m not that picky, both WOLED and QD-OLED look good to me. And regarding calibration, that’s no problem for me, as I calibrated my screens/TVs manually with HCFR and will fix the black crush as good as possible myself.

If we could get a 42” TV with QD-OLED 1080p 500Hz and CRT-Beam-Simulation, that would be my preference but I think it will take a long time until we get anything close to 500Hz in >= 42” and 4k.

After a lot of research on my end, the only options for 60Hz/60FPS content seem to be either a Plasma TV (I own a Panasonic 50PF30), the LG CX (I own two 65”CX) or ideally a CRT like the Sony FW900, all paired with scan line sync for a tearless and mostly lag free experience. As the FW900 is impossible to get, I’m debating between Plasma vs CX and to me, at least for gaming, the CX looks like a winner on paper.

That’s for gaming though, I can imagine for video a Plasma will be better, as it will playback 24/30FPS content better? Anyways, that would be another topic, for now the hunt is for the best 60FPS experience.

[NeonPizza]

The size probably won't cut it, but a 32" QD-OLED Monitor (240hz 'MSI UPX) paired with a RetroTINK4K will give you that 4ms persistence(75% motion blur reduction)

Next year, supposedly we're getting 180/200hz QD-OLED TV's. 180hz is compatible with TINK4K, which is a 5ms persistence(66% blur reduction). I personally can't go back to WOLED. The colours don't cut the mustard for me personally and the black crushing isn't fixable unless you hire a pro calibrater. dated tech imo.

If i couldn't go QD-OLED, i'd probably just go for the Hisense U8N QD-MIni LED and call it a day. Viewing angles suck, the motion response time will be a little slower. But the QD-Colours are good(Not AS good as QD-OLED mind you.), Black levels approach OLED territory, ABL is less aggressive, there's no chance of burn in, and SDR game mode can get much brighter. Local Dimming is a bit annoying though, since brighter objects on a black back ground can dim. I'm guessing this is because of it's lighting zone transitions, plus subtle blooming too.

Thanks for the answer, but that doesn’t really answer my main question regarding Plasma vs CX.

Sadly I can’t go back to anything smaller than 42” for gaming. Also I’m strictly wanting the best 60Hz experience, as for anything >60FPS I will be using my Samsung S90C (QD-OLED, 144Hz, 2000nits peak brightness). The CRT-Beam-Simulator looks extremely promising and will be undoubtedly the best alternative in the future, but we are not here yet.

Also regarding colors I’m not that picky, both WOLED and QD-OLED look good to me. And regarding calibration, that’s no problem for me, as I calibrated my screens/TVs manually with HCFR and will fix the black crush as good as possible myself.

If we could get a 42” TV with QD-OLED 1080p 500Hz and CRT-Beam-Simulation, that would be my preference but I think it will take a long time until we get anything close to 500Hz in >= 42” and 4k.

After a lot of research on my end, the only options for 60Hz/60FPS content seem to be either a Plasma TV (I own a Panasonic 50PF30), the LG CX (I own two 65”CX) or ideally a CRT like the Sony FW900, all paired with scan line sync for a tearless and mostly lag free experience. As the FW900 is impossible to get, I’m debating between Plasma vs CX and to me, at least for gaming, the CX looks like a winner on paper.

That’s for gaming though, I can imagine for video a Plasma will be better, as it will playback 24/30FPS content better? Anyways, that would be another topic, for now the hunt is for the best 60FPS experience.

It's crazy how Samsung still hasn't given us 42" QD-OLED's yet, still just WOLED. But if you're perfectly fine with WOLED colour and you're capable of fixing the out of box black crush, then the 42" LG C5 could be worth checking out. I'm only interesting in 32" & 42" QD-OLED's as secondary display for retro gaming(8-16 bit generations) to go along side my 27" Sony WEGA CRT. But i really want 240hz.

TINK4K supports 120hz, 180hz & 240hz BFI(not 144hz or the latest 165hz from the Samsung S95F), so based on what's available, you can either get a 50% blur reduction with OLED TV's, (or 75% with a 240hz QD-OLED monitor, but that's out because you're not willing to go below 42"), but the total latency unless I'm mistaken stacks up to around 20ms....Not ideal, at least for me anyways.

2-2.5ms just by using TINK4K, 8.3ms from TINK4K's 120hz BFI used for 60fps games, and about 10ms from lets say an S90C/S90D/S90F or LG C5's 60fps Game mode. 20ms is too much for me personally, but the 50% reduction in motion blur makes a world of a difference, as it does when gaming at 120fps.

For next year, the 180hz BFI should add 5ms instead of 8.3ms, dropping the total lag to 17ms. Anyways, for modern gaming i need either 55" or 65" and it has to have QD-Colour. And yea, The chief brought up the CRT Beam technology with one of our last conversations. He was hoping for it to be a thing by 2030. But that's a long ways off.

And I would never bounce back to plasma for gaming, simply because the latency is too high. There were a few sets that could hit 16ms like the Panasonic 2010 GT25 & VT25. But you'll never find them, and if you do they're probably on their way out. They also can't match the brightness, true blacks & clarity of QD-OLED either, but at least plasma motion is excellent at it's best.

If 20ms of lag doesn't bother you, instead of 10ms. Than going for the S90C(55" or 65") and pairing that with TINK4K will get you that 50% blur cut for 60fps in SDR. It will add mild flicker, and it's capped at 1080p mind you. What's cool is that it can reinforce HDR brightness into SDR to compensate for the brightness loss coming from it's BFI. And I can't speak for the CX, but i hear it's SDR game mode is quite dim. I had a C9 and C1, the latter's SDR game mode brightness was weak compared to the C9. LG dropped the ball. Hated the colour on both sets as well. If you use the native color gamut instead and crank colours up to 56 in SDR game mode than they're OK, but not in league with QD-OLED or even the RGB OLED panel Nintendo's using with their Switch OLED display. But if you leave LG C1 or C9's colour an auto, the colours are lifeless and desaturated, putting aside the weird greenish tint/lack of warmth which doesn't exist on my Mini-QLED. with Mini-QLED it feels like i'm getting Plasma & CRT colours.

Although, the C1 can get lower than 4ms/persistence, with 120fps games using it's MotionPro High. But by that point you lose too much brightness, and it's BFI creates more shadow detail crushing and latency shoots up to like 26ms... I HATE the C1. lol SDR game mode looks soft compared to ISF Bright, it's SDR game mode is dim, and the colours look noticeably worse than even my Hisense Mini QD-LED.

But then, I also don't like the viewing angles, the dimming of bright objects on black backgrounds from local dimming, and slower motion response time of Mini QD-LED. But at least they don't get burn in! Both my C1 & C9 were creamed in that department haha.