oled vs 120hz Plasma Motion Clarity

[Clear Motion Seeker]

Thank you for your answer.

So it's comparable to 120hz without BFI. Too bad it doesn't match the 4ms mprt of the CX BFI, with such brightness capacity.

[Baron of Sun]

You're welcome. Yes it is, except you have higher latency than native 120 Hz. Imo we are slowly reaching brightness levels that allow reducing motion blur via BFI or rolling scan while still having a good HDR presentation. When enabling Motion Pro High at 60 Hz on the LG CX/C1, you get 150 nits peak. With the G5 you would have still almost 500 nits if it had the same blur reduction which would be nice. I really hope they bring sub-refresh BFI back on their TVs.

[Clear Motion Seeker]

Yes, the hardware is sufficient today. 500 nits would be 2 to 3 times brighter than any plasma ever released.

Unfortunately it will always be limited by software as manufacturers don't want to work on it seriously.

I suppose that Panasonic, Sony and Samsung flagships give similar results.

When enabling Motion Pro High at 60 Hz on the LG CX/C1, you get 150 nits peak

BFI was already nerfed in the C1 at 60 hz, giving the typical 8ms mprt with 50% brightness loss.
Only CX was able to give 4ms mprt with 60 hz BFI but at the cost of a dramatic brightness loss :

viewtopic.php?p=54466#p54466

With the G5, it would have been awesome this time.

[JimProfit]

Motion Pro High on the LG C1/G1 at 60hz leaves exactly 37.5% of the brightness across the board, for a corresponding +166.66% increase in motion clarity
It is meant to be the exact middle ground between the Motion Pro Medium setting (50% brightness for a 2x motion clarity increase) and the High setting on the CX/GX (x4 increase in motion clarity at 25% remaining brightness, which was quite dim even by SDR standards).

At 120hz, both the X and 1 series TVs used the "37.5%" multiplier with the Motion Pro High setting.
On all these TVs, only Motion Pro High works at 60hz without double image artifacts. Motion Pro Medium and Low strobe at 120hz no matter what, you still get a boost in clarity but the double-image penalty makes it not really worth it.
Or perhaps, on the G1 you could probably do 60hz Motion Pro Medium and still get HDR400 level brightness and just accept the double-image artifacts which may or may not be visible depending on the scene.

So, with this in mind and using the RTINGS brightness measurements as a reference, you get the following results:
At 60hz HDR Game Mode with Motion Pro High:
CX: ~2.66ms MPRT => 240hz equivalent, 187 nits peak 2% brightness, 37 nits sustained 100% brightness
GX: ~2.66ms MPRT => 240hz equivalent, 198 nits peak 2% brightness, 37 nits sustained 100% brightness
C1: ~6.25ms MPRT => 160hz equivalent, 271 nits peak 2% brightness, 48 nits sustained 100% brightness
G1: ~6.25ms MPRT => 160hz equivalent, 313 nits peak 2% brightness, 61 nits sustained 100% brightness

In SDR, the peak brightness would be much lower but still reaching the 100nits threshold for dark room SDR.
Disabling ABL stuff in the service menu would also provide a boost to brightness especially when approaching a 100% white screen, in my experience it is much more noticeable on 2021 models compared to 2020/X models.

OLED's weakness VS LCD remains fullscreen brightness, and so I would say that even with ABL disabled, fullscreen Brightness on my GX is painfully low when Motion Pro High is turned on.
My last-gen Kuro, while being 1080p and laggy-er with very modest peak brightness, does have noticeably more pleasant bright fullscreen scenes than my GX at a similar motion clarity.
My G1 is the best compromise for HDR w/BFI on (as far a OLEDs goes), the X series is too dim for anything more than dark room SDR.

It is an absolute crime that newer, brighter OLEDs don't have rolling-scan BFI. Fullscreen brightness would remain a limiting factor compared to LCD backlight strobing, which is likely to remain the only option for sub-2ms MPRT at 60hz, but on a G5 or S95F you could realistically have a more aggressive multiplier than the LG X series' High/x4 mode and still have plenty of brightness left on the table for HDR400.

[Clear Motion Seeker]

That's really interesting, thanks.

Why is there double image effect with BFI on the CX ?

I thought that double image could happen in two cases :

- When the GtG is too high, causing ghosting that appears as some kind of double edge due to low mprt (not an issue with oled technology)

- When the framerate doesn't match the refresh rate (30 fps with 60 Hz or 60 fps with 120 Hz).
It was not so obvious on CRT but much more on a plasma probably due to much bigger screen size. Not really visible on LCD and oled without BFI because the sample and hold naturally hides it. Knowing that on top of that, game themselves may feature motion blur without allowing the possibility to remove it (on consoles).

It is an absolute crime that newer, brighter OLEDs don't have rolling-scan BFI. Fullscreen brightness would remain a limiting factor compared to LCD backlight strobing, which is likely to remain the only option for sub-2ms MPRT at 60hz, but on a G5 or S95F you could realistically have a more aggressive multiplier than the LG X series' High/x4 mode and still have plenty of brightness left on the table for HDR400.

Completely. It was understandable with the limits of previous oled panels, but now we could already have had this almost CRT crisp motion while still having a comfortable amount of brightness.
The hardware is here, unfortunately we cannot hack these TV as i suppose that almost everything is coded at low level, which would need reverse engineering.

[JimProfit]

Motion Pro Low and Medium only strobe at 120h, even when displaying at 60hz. You can clearly tell because the flickering is less brutal.
I assume it switches to 100hz in 50hz content, because Motion Pro also works at those refreshes.

So basically at 60hz Motion Pro Medium on the CX/GX/C1/G1, you technically get the theoretical 4.16ms MRPT but marred by non-juddered double image artifacts, and since the phenomenon is motion speed dependent, you will notice it more the faster things move.
Whether that is worse than, say, native 120hz or literal BFI at 60hz (8.33ms MPRT) is up for debate. I'd say it's definitely worse than any of these TVs at Motion Pro High and definitely better than pure sample and hold 60hz. I guess it depends on the scene.
But it does spare a bit of brightness compared to High and is one way to target HDR400 on the G1 when absolutely stuck at 60hz with no other option (on the PC there's always lossless scaling and such).

At 120hz I'd say that you can pick any Motion Pro level depending on whether you like to favor brightness or motion clarity.
On any of the rolling-scan LGs, you get 6.25ms MPRT at Low, 4.16ms MPRT at Medium, and 3.125ms MPRT at High.
With a 25%, 50% and 62.5% theoretical brightness loss, respectively.

[Clear Motion Seeker]

I got it, thanks.

4ms mprt and 50% brightness loss would be a sweet spot with current technology. Not quite CRT standard, but crisp enough with moderate speed.

Helas, they nerfed rolling scan.

[JimProfit]

I got it, thanks.

4ms mprt and 50% brightness loss would be a sweet spot with current technology. Not quite CRT standard, but crisp enough with moderate speed.

Helas, they nerfed rolling scan.

Not sure how'd they do that via strobing alone. With strobing there is basically perfect arbitration between brightness and motion (Talbot-Plateau law). Double the motion clarity, half the brightness and so on and so forth.

Though, don't quote me on that, but I believe it is possible that certain TVs can "flash brighter" i.e. the energy resources can be allocated higher when consumption is already capped by the strobing mode. Resulting in brightness a few percent higher than expected by the Talbot-Plateau law. I believe this is why you can have sub 1ms MPRT LCD with sufficient remaining brightness.
Someone more technically minded feel free let me know if I said something goofy.