New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

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Arch
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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by Arch » 22 Apr 2020, 01:29

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 01:22
Are you wanting to do 60Hz via PC or via console?

_______________

If you're playing PC-based 60Hz, there's another trick: 60fps at 240Hz variable refresh rate, looks exactly like 60fps@60Hz, but at lower latency than fixed 60Hz (on either a 60Hz or 240Hz panel). So for your 60fps games, I recommend 240Hz with VRR enabled. That makes your 60Hz PC games ultra-low latency. Low-capped VRR (60fps at 240Hz) feels like a lagless VSYNC ON mode of sorts -- it's really fast, 60Hz refresh cycles are transmitted to the monitor in 1/240sec.

_______________

Now, if you connect a fixed-Hz 60Hz console:

One problem with many 240Hz panels is that the panel refresh is not synchronous to the cable scanout at lower Hz. So that adds some input lag.

Not all pixels on an LCD refreshes all at the same time. Pixels are delivered one pixel at a time, left-to-right, top-to-bottom, as in high speed videos of LCD refreshing. This is how a two-dimensional picture is delivered over a one-dimensional video cable.

For lowest lag, the cable scanout is synchronous to the panel scanout, so the panel can refresh in realtime almost straight off the cable with minimal processing latency (rolling window processing).

But, there are some panels that only refresh at full velocity (e.g. can not "Sweep" the LCD slower than 1/240sec). Which means that monitor's motherboard has to buffer a slow-scanning 60Hz refresh off the cable, before it begins refreshing the 240Hz-only panel. That's essentially a scan-conversion behavior (changing the speed of the scanout). So that adds latency to a lower-Hz signal.

ASUS XG258 or XG248, as far as I know, are horizontal-scanrate synchronous to the input signal. This makes that panel an unusual specimen in being low-lag 240Hz and low-lag 60Hz. Not all 240Hz monitors are low-lag for 60Hz gaming consoles. If you need a 240Hz monitor that is also low-lag for PlayStation and XBox, then the XG series are the ones to get.
I shoul've been clearer, sorry. I'm only playing on PC. No consoles or whatsoever. I'm not as experienced as you guys so I rely on you to provide me some advices.
I saw the user named RLCScontender fiercely defend the MSI as the best console 240Hz IPS monitor, and the best overall. What's your opinion Chief? Knowing that I only play on PC.

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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Apr 2020, 01:36

Arch wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 01:29
I saw the user named RLCScontender fiercely defend the MSI as the best console 240Hz IPS monitor, and the best overall. What's your opinion Chief? Knowing that I only play on PC.
It's possible. I don't currently know if MSI panel is fixed-scanrate or scanrate-multisync, but if it uses the same panel and scaler firmware as the XG258/XG248 series, then I don't see why it couldn't be a low-lag console panel.

<Technical>
The high-60Hz-lag 240Hz panels will have the weird latency gradient along the vertical dimension of the screen. High-lag top edge and low-lag bottom edge, because the 60Hz scanout is 12ms delayed for top edge, 6ms delayed for screen center, and 0ms delayed for bottom edge (relative to a synchronous cable=panel scanout 60Hz). This assumes that panel scanout begins once the 60Hz cable scanout signal is three-quarters buffered in the monitor's memory, so that the scanout (cable scanout and panel scanout) "meets" converges towards the realtime point at the bottom edge of the panel.
</Technical>
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Jasa
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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by Jasa » 22 Apr 2020, 17:19

Does anybody know approximately how many nits the MAG251RX is with the strobing on? I currently use a VG248QE at around 20% brightness which according to this source (https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/asus-vg248qe/) is around 150 nits. If the MAG251RX is around that brightness with strobing on (or brighter) that would be ideal for me.

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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by RLCSContender* » 22 Apr 2020, 20:02

Jasa wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 17:19
Does anybody know approximately how many nits the MAG251RX is with the strobing on? I currently use a VG248QE at around 20% brightness which according to this source (https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/asus-vg248qe/) is around 150 nits. If the MAG251RX is around that brightness with strobing on (or brighter) that would be ideal for me.
I always play in a dark room and you are still able to play it and see everything but dimness just kinda bothers me because i play a game that requires plenty of brightness(rocket league). The 280hz asus, you are able to change the brightness even with backlight strobing and you can barely tell if strobing is on.

For the MSI though, you can't change the brightness and it's too dim on my opinion.

There are workarounmds like lowering the gamma, increasing the contrast or have nvidia control panel(if you have an nvidia) card take control of the brightness and raising it. but the colors wont' be accurate. What I personally use is the "controlmymonitor" application and increase the brightness. That way the colors will be accurate and it won't be dim if you strobe.

Every weakness the MSI has, has a workaround. Even its crappy stand, you can easily purchase a $27 vesa stand from amazon.

when it comes to the strobing experience, it's pretty good. the sharpness on moving objects is crystal clear and hardly any crosstalk(although u will be able to see some, the trade off better motion clariy is worth it). U can't however have freesync/gsync on, but there's no reason to since it adds input lag. I NEVER use freesync/gsync. The added input lag isn't worth the tearing that you won't even see if freesync/g sync is on.

You can strobe from 240hz and below(165hz, 144hz, 120hz, 100hz, etc). The only time i strobe is if i'm on a losing streak and to break my bad habits, i strobe bcuz the motion clarity subconsciously increase my reaction times for some reason(although its just a placebo) it's a good function to have. Unlike the alienware where you are forced to play ONE way(freesync/gsync on)

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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by RLCSContender* » 22 Apr 2020, 20:08

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 01:22
Are you wanting to do 60Hz via PC or via console?

_______________

If you're playing PC-based 60Hz, there's another trick: 60fps at 240Hz variable refresh rate, looks exactly like 60fps@60Hz, but at lower latency than fixed 60Hz (on either a 60Hz or 240Hz panel). So for your 60fps games, I recommend 240Hz with VRR enabled. That makes your 60Hz PC games ultra-low latency. Low-capped VRR (60fps at 240Hz) feels like a lagless VSYNC ON mode of sorts -- it's really fast, 60Hz refresh cycles are transmitted to the monitor in 1/240sec.

_______________

Now, if you connect a fixed-Hz 60Hz console:

One problem with many 240Hz panels is that the panel refresh is not synchronous to the cable scanout at lower Hz. So that adds some input lag.

Not all pixels on an LCD refreshes all at the same time. Pixels are delivered one pixel at a time, left-to-right, top-to-bottom, as in high speed videos of LCD refreshing. This is how a two-dimensional picture is delivered over a one-dimensional video cable.

For lowest lag, the cable scanout is synchronous to the panel scanout, so the panel can refresh in realtime almost straight off the cable with minimal processing latency (rolling window processing).

But, there are some panels that only refresh at full velocity (e.g. can not "Sweep" the LCD slower than 1/240sec). Which means that monitor's motherboard has to buffer a slow-scanning 60Hz refresh off the cable, before it begins refreshing the 240Hz-only panel. That's essentially a scan-conversion behavior (changing the speed of the scanout). So that adds latency to a lower-Hz signal.

In other words, some LCD panels are horizontal-scanrate multisync, and other LCD panels are horizontal-scanrate fixed (requiring buffering at a non-native Hz).

ASUS XG258 or XG248, as far as I know, are horizontal-scanrate synchronous to the input signal. This makes that panel an unusual specimen in being low-lag 240Hz and low-lag 60Hz. Not all 240Hz monitors are low-lag for 60Hz gaming consoles. If you need a 240Hz monitor that is also low-lag for PlayStation and XBox, then the XG series are the ones to get.

VRR is treated a bit differently. That said, be noted there can still be scanout-buffering lag with 120Hz VRR on a fast-scanout-only 240Hz LCD panel (an LCDa panel with fixed max horizontal scanrate). It's only minor (~4ms worstcase, the differential between 1/120sec and 1/240sec) for the latency differential of the most-lagged portion of the scanout (top vs center vs bottom). That is tiny enough not to worry about. It's more noticeable for 60Hz because the buffering differential is bigger (1/60sec vs 1/240sec is ~12ms difference).
interesting. What about the 120hz consoles series x and playstation 5? 60hz to 120hz is night and day, moreso than 144hz to 240hz.

I seriously doubt the ps5 can push 120hz at 4k, but would you recommend keeping the refresh rate up at 120hz even though the framerate is 60hz or should i just use the refresh rate of 60hz to match the maximum FPS of 60hz(for most AAA games on the ps5/series x). Console VRR is a fairly new technology since the xbox one x was the first console to apply it.

I'm kinda pissed that my XG270qg doesn't have HDMI VRR. I'm wondering how much of an impact by NOT having VRR even though the monitor can still keep the refresh rate at 120hz, stuttering? tearing? I'm thinking of getting a HDMI to DP converter and have g sync working on my viewsonic, then again, i have to do more research on that.

Arch
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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by Arch » 22 Apr 2020, 20:51

RLCScontender wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 20:02
For the MSI though, you can't change the brightness and it's too dim on my opinion.
If I remember correctly, you said that it's still not as obnoxious as EMLB enabled on the Asus? I'm in if it is. Currently on VG27AQ.
Would've loved to try both on my own but I'll rely on your tests. How is the AW2521HF on 60Hz games at 240Hz?

mamba
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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by mamba » 23 Apr 2020, 03:10

RLCScontender wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 09:45
I will include details on a new topic but here is the gist of it


FASTEST on their optimal settings
(the setting I recommend when you play video games) Which means no severe overshoots and yes, I will allow smearing if the trade off is better motion clarity and MPRT). MPRT is very important and in my opinion more important than actual response time. The whole purpose of a better response time is to limit motion blur, so in a practical sense, THESE are the fastest IPS monitors right now.

#1. Asus TUF VG279qm, 280hz refresh rate+ELMB-SYNC ON.(also, ADD in +40hz adds better motion clarity+backlight strobing+100 brightness on "RPG" viewing setting, it's faster on a practical sense than the MAG251rx)
#2. MSI MAG271RX (240hz on its "faster" overdrive setting)
#3 Viewsonic XG270 (240hz "pureXP" (BLB strobing) on)
#4 Dell Alienware AW2720HF (240hz on FAST setting)
#5 LG 27gn750 (240hz on "fast") EDIT(not even gonna dignify using this, i just put it on here bcuz i tested it, the gap between the dell alienware vs the 27gn750 is HUGE)

Fastest G2G average(response time) TWO different oscolliscopes, one budget, one in tthe $350 range from amazon). Lagom and blurbusters to cross reference the results.

1. MSI MAG271RX (3.1 ms g2g at 240hz on its "faster" setting). (Target_return)
2. VG279qm (3.7ms g2g average on 240hz on its 80 overdrive setting. ) 4.1ms on 280hz on its 80 overdrive setting)
3. Dell Alienware AW2720HF (4.1ms g2g average on "faster" at 240hz)
4. Viewsonic XG270 (4.3ms g2g average at 240hz)
5. LG Ultragear 27gn850 (5.1 ms g2g average at 240hz on "fast" overdrive)

the two AHVA panels are clearly faster than the first generation panels. They use the same panel but the overdrive implementation on the MAG is better since it only has 3 overdrives and only "faster" is compatible because the other two overdrives are too slow for the 240hz. The VG279qm i got 3.7ms on its average g2g. at 80,it's still fast and the difference between the MAG vs the asus tuf is not noticeable, even their overshoots are not noticeable.

Unfortunately for the LG 27gn750 belongs in the bargain bin. it's probably the slowest 240hz ips panel. Not to mention its barebones compatibility(no backlight strobing, no wide gamut). And no, it's not a "nano" panel, they are just using that as a way to ride the coattails of its more succuessful and FASTER(yes, no joke) than the 27gl850-b

Still surprised that the AW did better than the xg270 sincce they use the same panel from AO optronics. The AW however had more overshoot. I'm seeing blue tint coming out of the rocket league ball quite often from the alienware. Not on the XG270 though.

THE AW2521hf recently came out but it's using the same panel as its 27" precedecessor so it shouldn't be any different from the 1st generation panels. I never got to test out the Acer Nitro XV272U but it should be siimlar to the xg270 and the alienware since those 1st generation IPS uses thees ame AU optronics model.

Lastly, the MSI MAg251rx absolutely shattered the competition, and it's NOT EVEN CLOSE(unless the TUF VG279qm uses 280hz only if ELMB SYNC IS ON). . I had an omen x 27(before returning it due to a dead pixel) and it's faster than the omen x 27 and the omen x27 is one of the fastest monitors right now.

HOWEVER, THE added motion clarity with +40hzrefresh rate from the Asus, ELMB-SYNC ON, the VG279qm is faster due to less motion blur and more sharpness from moving objects. g2g average isn't the end all be all. Motion clarity, less motion blur, and a PERFECT 80 overdrive match from ELMB sync makes practical USE of the 280z faster. I owned the xg270(and returned will reorder) and i did a side by side, the VG279qm at 280hz vs 240hz, it's very obvious that the VG279qm is faster when MOVING fast. Keep in mind, ELMB sync has to be on, if its not on, then be prepared to see a lot of smearing bcuz this monitor is not fast enough to keep up with the 280hz refresh rate.

Still, i'm 100% sure these IPS monitors cannot compete with the Variable overdrive G sync TOP TN monitors. But at these ridiculous response times, i'm surprised ppl are able to distinguish these differences.

There will still be a lot of 240hz ips monitors coming out. (predator series especially, and don't forget the 240hz 1440p IPS panel coming in Q4, not to mention the lenovo odyssee)

Proud owner of the vg279qm here, should I use ELMB>>ON and Sync>>ON? since they are split up in different options. I play valorant and rocket league. Valorant fluctuates between 200-280fps(I have it capped). And Rocket League sits at 280fps. What setting should I use? Thanks

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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 23 Apr 2020, 13:52

Arch wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 20:51
If I remember correctly, you said that it's still not as obnoxious as EMLB enabled on the Asus? I'm in if it is.
ELMB quality varies a lot, there's some ELMB situations that's not as obnoxious.
mamba wrote:
23 Apr 2020, 03:10
Proud owner of the vg279qm here, should I use ELMB>>ON and Sync>>ON? since they are split up in different options. I play valorant and rocket league. Valorant fluctuates between 200-280fps(I have it capped). And Rocket League sits at 280fps. What setting should I use? Thanks
Depends on your personal priorities. Capped ELMB-SYNC should be thought as a convenient low-lag VSYNC ON ELMB alternative, rather than ELMB VRR (due to strobe crosstalk from the specific ELMB-SYNC algorithm at framerates far below Hz. This is opposite the expected behaviour). ELMB-SYNC can look good near max Hz, without the latency of VSYNC ON. Basically treating ELMB-SYNC as a fixed-Hz ELMB, just using ELMB-SYNC only to lower fps=Hz latency (as an alternative to VSYNC ON).

YMMV, but Rocket League will can benefit from 275fps-capped 280Hz ELMB-SYNC, in more easily eye-tracking the ball while turning fast. VRR means fps=Hz, and ELMB likes fps=Hz. Always use a cap with ELMB-SYNC to avoid falling back to VSYNC ON latency. The fps=Hz microstutterless ELMB-SYNC works wonders with higher-dpi mice, you'll need to raise DPI quite a bit (1600dpi or 3200dpi) and lower in-game sensitivity a bit, to de-microstutter your ELMB turns (400dpi microstutters too much with ELMB). Just keep framerates near max Hz and ELMB-SYNC looks good (instead of obnoxious).

It's kind of a "Right Tool For Right Job" decision.

For deep dives into ELMB-SYNC, I think this deserves a separate thread (if inviting a longer Chief Blur Buster reply at least) since this is a "discuss ELMB-SYNC pros/cons" rather than "discuss Monitor X vs Y vs Z".
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Blehhh
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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by Blehhh » 24 Apr 2020, 00:21

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
23 Apr 2020, 13:52
Arch wrote:
22 Apr 2020, 20:51
If I remember correctly, you said that it's still not as obnoxious as EMLB enabled on the Asus? I'm in if it is.
ELMB quality varies a lot, there's some ELMB situations that's not as obnoxious.
mamba wrote:
23 Apr 2020, 03:10
Proud owner of the vg279qm here, should I use ELMB>>ON and Sync>>ON? since they are split up in different options. I play valorant and rocket league. Valorant fluctuates between 200-280fps(I have it capped). And Rocket League sits at 280fps. What setting should I use? Thanks
Depends on your personal priorities. Capped ELMB-SYNC should be thought as a convenient low-lag VSYNC ON ELMB alternative, rather than ELMB VRR (due to strobe crosstalk from the specific ELMB-SYNC algorithm at framerates far below Hz. This is opposite the expected behaviour). ELMB-SYNC can look good near max Hz, without the latency of VSYNC ON. Basically treating ELMB-SYNC as a fixed-Hz ELMB, just using ELMB-SYNC only to lower fps=Hz latency (as an alternative to VSYNC ON).

YMMV, but Rocket League will can benefit from 275fps-capped 280Hz ELMB-SYNC, in more easily eye-tracking the ball while turning fast. VRR means fps=Hz, and ELMB likes fps=Hz. Always use a cap with ELMB-SYNC to avoid falling back to VSYNC ON latency. The fps=Hz microstutterless ELMB-SYNC works wonders with higher-dpi mice, you'll need to raise DPI quite a bit (1600dpi or 3200dpi) and lower in-game sensitivity a bit, to de-microstutter your ELMB turns (400dpi microstutters too much with ELMB). Just keep framerates near max Hz and ELMB-SYNC looks good (instead of obnoxious).

It's kind of a "Right Tool For Right Job" decision.

For deep dives into ELMB-SYNC, I think this deserves a separate thread (if inviting a longer Chief Blur Buster reply at least) since this is a "discuss ELMB-SYNC pros/cons" rather than "discuss Monitor X vs Y vs Z".
May i ask something chief? If my Apex legends fps is cap at exactly 190fps, is it better to buy Asus VG279QM or the MSI MAG251rx? which is better with the perfect settings (ELMB and the perfect overdrive mode etc) to play at around that 190fps? I apologize for asking but ive been reading this forum everyday but still quite confuse :(.
Thanks in advance and have a nice day :)

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Re: New 1080p 240hz IPS monitors. LG 27gn750, MSI MAG251rx, Asus TUF vg279qm/vg259qm.

Post by Swiish » 27 May 2020, 13:58

@RLCScontender, Can you send me the workarounds/optimal settings for the dimness of the MSI MAG251rx? Thanks.

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