Blur Busters Forums

TooManyPixels wrote: ↑

24 Sep 2023, 18:00

What causes a 500Hz mouse to sometimes report at 250Hz or 125 Hz?

Annotated.png

This particular kind of mouse "lag" is the same one I've been dealing with for the past 4 years.

I don't want to call it "lag" because, strictly-speaking, this isn't a latency issue, but it seems to be a variable sensitivity and/or variable movement report-time. This happens with a variety of mice too, and on a variety of computers (all affected machines have Intel CPUs, I have an unaffected machine with an AMD processor; all machines are running Windows 10 22H2).

I know that moving the mouse very slowly (e.g. 1 mouse-unit per second) will result in MouseTester reporting very slow frequencies - but I get this 250Hz and 125Hz (and oddly, ~167Hz too) when I move my mouse at a reasonable natural speed which should always be reported at 500Hz.

I am aware of XHCI moderation, but the minimum moderation interval is 250ns - but 250Hz is 4ms (quite a few orders of magnitude higher!) - but also because I purchased a StarTech USB 2.0 PCI-Express card (USB 2.0 is EHCI, not XHCI) and I can reproduce the issue when my mouse is plugged into either the USB 2.0 card or my motherboard's USB 3.0 ports.

I cannot reliably reproduce this on-demand, but it tends to happen throughout the day, then be fine for a few days, then reappear again.

----

Obligatory list of things to mention:

• Issue started affecting me around October 2019
• It happens regardless of the mouse model I'm using (Razer Basilisk V2, Logitech G400, Logitech MX518, some random no-name mice, and interestingly, also it feels like the PS/2 touchpad in my laptop is affected too)
• Affected computers of mine:
  • Intel NUC 11 (with Intel i7-1165G7) built in 2021
  • ASUS Z490-E (with Intel i7-10700K) built in 2020
  • ASUS X99 (with Intel i7-6850K) built in 2016
  • Dell XPS 9560 (with Intel i7-7700HQ) built in 2017
• Unaffected computers of mine:
  
  • ASUS X570-E (with AMD Ryzen 7 2700X)
• Issue is reproducible in both USB 2.0 ports in a USB 2.0-only card (this card from StarTech) and in USB 3.0 and USB 3.1 ports on all affected machines.
• Issue happens with Intel CPU-integrated graphics, and with NVIDIA GeForce, AMD Radeon, and AMD Radeon Pro GPUs.
• It definitely is not EMI or anything like that (because it also happens on my XPS laptop when I'm in the outdoors, or anywhere)
• LatencyMon Pro 7.31 shows nothing unusual even when I can reproduce the issue
• The older dpclat.exe seems to think there's a 1000us latency, but given the age of the program ("DPC Latency Checker V1.4.0" is from 2015) it predates Windows 10 entirely and I understand MS made changes to how applications can access system timers since then.
• I have fiddled with EFI and Windows boot settings (e.g. HPET, UsePlatformTick, DisableDynamicTick, and the rest, to no effect, and I'm familiar with this article too).
• Disabling/removing all networking hardware made no difference (so the first person to say "bufferbloat" unironically gets a stabbing).

Sandy wrote: ↑

08 Jun 2024, 12:30

TooManyPixels wrote: ↑

24 Sep 2023, 18:00

What causes a 500Hz mouse to sometimes report at 250Hz or 125 Hz?

Annotated.png

This particular kind of mouse "lag" is the same one I've been dealing with for the past 4 years.

I don't want to call it "lag" because, strictly-speaking, this isn't a latency issue, but it seems to be a variable sensitivity and/or variable movement report-time. This happens with a variety of mice too, and on a variety of computers (all affected machines have Intel CPUs, I have an unaffected machine with an AMD processor; all machines are running Windows 10 22H2).

I know that moving the mouse very slowly (e.g. 1 mouse-unit per second) will result in MouseTester reporting very slow frequencies - but I get this 250Hz and 125Hz (and oddly, ~167Hz too) when I move my mouse at a reasonable natural speed which should always be reported at 500Hz.

I am aware of XHCI moderation, but the minimum moderation interval is 250ns - but 250Hz is 4ms (quite a few orders of magnitude higher!) - but also because I purchased a StarTech USB 2.0 PCI-Express card (USB 2.0 is EHCI, not XHCI) and I can reproduce the issue when my mouse is plugged into either the USB 2.0 card or my motherboard's USB 3.0 ports.

I cannot reliably reproduce this on-demand, but it tends to happen throughout the day, then be fine for a few days, then reappear again.

----

Obligatory list of things to mention:

• Issue started affecting me around October 2019
• It happens regardless of the mouse model I'm using (Razer Basilisk V2, Logitech G400, Logitech MX518, some random no-name mice, and interestingly, also it feels like the PS/2 touchpad in my laptop is affected too)
• Affected computers of mine:
  • Intel NUC 11 (with Intel i7-1165G7) built in 2021
  • ASUS Z490-E (with Intel i7-10700K) built in 2020
  • ASUS X99 (with Intel i7-6850K) built in 2016
  • Dell XPS 9560 (with Intel i7-7700HQ) built in 2017
• Unaffected computers of mine:
  
  • ASUS X570-E (with AMD Ryzen 7 2700X)
• Issue is reproducible in both USB 2.0 ports in a USB 2.0-only card (this card from StarTech) and in USB 3.0 and USB 3.1 ports on all affected machines.
• Issue happens with Intel CPU-integrated graphics, and with NVIDIA GeForce, AMD Radeon, and AMD Radeon Pro GPUs.
• It definitely is not EMI or anything like that (because it also happens on my XPS laptop when I'm in the outdoors, or anywhere)
• LatencyMon Pro 7.31 shows nothing unusual even when I can reproduce the issue
• The older dpclat.exe seems to think there's a 1000us latency, but given the age of the program ("DPC Latency Checker V1.4.0" is from 2015) it predates Windows 10 entirely and I understand MS made changes to how applications can access system timers since then.
• I have fiddled with EFI and Windows boot settings (e.g. HPET, UsePlatformTick, DisableDynamicTick, and the rest, to no effect, and I'm familiar with this article too).
• Disabling/removing all networking hardware made no difference (so the first person to say "bufferbloat" unironically gets a stabbing).

Come on brother, I'm following your posts. So far I've ruled out all other possibilities. Everything seems to point to the device manager mouse HID and power supply electrical problems.
I found that every time I disable the branch HID\VID_046D&PID_C539&REV_3906&MI_01&Col04 under the mouse item, the input delay will get better. This is the only constant among all the short-term placebos. It can be stably reproduced. So I think your research is very valuable. You can discuss more with the moderator.

JimCarry wrote: ↑

08 Jun 2024, 14:38

Sandy wrote: ↑

08 Jun 2024, 12:30

TooManyPixels wrote: ↑

24 Sep 2023, 18:00

What causes a 500Hz mouse to sometimes report at 250Hz or 125 Hz?

Annotated.png

This particular kind of mouse "lag" is the same one I've been dealing with for the past 4 years.

I don't want to call it "lag" because, strictly-speaking, this isn't a latency issue, but it seems to be a variable sensitivity and/or variable movement report-time. This happens with a variety of mice too, and on a variety of computers (all affected machines have Intel CPUs, I have an unaffected machine with an AMD processor; all machines are running Windows 10 22H2).

I know that moving the mouse very slowly (e.g. 1 mouse-unit per second) will result in MouseTester reporting very slow frequencies - but I get this 250Hz and 125Hz (and oddly, ~167Hz too) when I move my mouse at a reasonable natural speed which should always be reported at 500Hz.

I am aware of XHCI moderation, but the minimum moderation interval is 250ns - but 250Hz is 4ms (quite a few orders of magnitude higher!) - but also because I purchased a StarTech USB 2.0 PCI-Express card (USB 2.0 is EHCI, not XHCI) and I can reproduce the issue when my mouse is plugged into either the USB 2.0 card or my motherboard's USB 3.0 ports.

I cannot reliably reproduce this on-demand, but it tends to happen throughout the day, then be fine for a few days, then reappear again.

----

Obligatory list of things to mention:

• Issue started affecting me around October 2019
• It happens regardless of the mouse model I'm using (Razer Basilisk V2, Logitech G400, Logitech MX518, some random no-name mice, and interestingly, also it feels like the PS/2 touchpad in my laptop is affected too)
• Affected computers of mine:
  • Intel NUC 11 (with Intel i7-1165G7) built in 2021
  • ASUS Z490-E (with Intel i7-10700K) built in 2020
  • ASUS X99 (with Intel i7-6850K) built in 2016
  • Dell XPS 9560 (with Intel i7-7700HQ) built in 2017
• Unaffected computers of mine:
  
  • ASUS X570-E (with AMD Ryzen 7 2700X)
• Issue is reproducible in both USB 2.0 ports in a USB 2.0-only card (this card from StarTech) and in USB 3.0 and USB 3.1 ports on all affected machines.
• Issue happens with Intel CPU-integrated graphics, and with NVIDIA GeForce, AMD Radeon, and AMD Radeon Pro GPUs.
• It definitely is not EMI or anything like that (because it also happens on my XPS laptop when I'm in the outdoors, or anywhere)
• LatencyMon Pro 7.31 shows nothing unusual even when I can reproduce the issue
• The older dpclat.exe seems to think there's a 1000us latency, but given the age of the program ("DPC Latency Checker V1.4.0" is from 2015) it predates Windows 10 entirely and I understand MS made changes to how applications can access system timers since then.
• I have fiddled with EFI and Windows boot settings (e.g. HPET, UsePlatformTick, DisableDynamicTick, and the rest, to no effect, and I'm familiar with this article too).
• Disabling/removing all networking hardware made no difference (so the first person to say "bufferbloat" unironically gets a stabbing).

Come on brother, I'm following your posts. So far I've ruled out all other possibilities. Everything seems to point to the device manager mouse HID and power supply electrical problems.
I found that every time I disable the branch HID\VID_046D&PID_C539&REV_3906&MI_01&Col04 under the mouse item, the input delay will get better. This is the only constant among all the short-term placebos. It can be stably reproduced. So I think your research is very valuable. You can discuss more with the moderator.

is mine ok ?

JimCarry wrote: ↑

08 Jun 2024, 21:46

It will recover repeatedly. Only one of the HID items is associated with the mouse, but even so it will recover.

Sandy wrote: ↑

09 Jun 2024, 08:55

JimCarry wrote: ↑

08 Jun 2024, 21:46

It will recover repeatedly. Only one of the HID items is associated with the mouse, but even so it will recover.

Is there a way not to recover?

JimCarry wrote: ↑

09 Jun 2024, 10:22

Sandy wrote: ↑

09 Jun 2024, 08:55

JimCarry wrote: ↑

08 Jun 2024, 21:46

It will recover repeatedly. Only one of the HID items is associated with the mouse, but even so it will recover.

Is there a way not to recover?

I'm going to buy a double conversion UPS. This is my last hope.

Sandy wrote: ↑

09 Jun 2024, 20:15

JimCarry wrote: ↑

09 Jun 2024, 10:22

Sandy wrote: ↑

09 Jun 2024, 08:55

JimCarry wrote: ↑

08 Jun 2024, 21:46

It will recover repeatedly. Only one of the HID items is associated with the mouse, but even so it will recover.

Is there a way not to recover?

I'm going to buy a double conversion UPS. This is my last hope.

Ok thanks,can you do update when you buy it ?