Nvidia Reflex 2 Frame Warp

[Chief Blur Buster]

A question is, Reflex1 can actually reduce latency by reducing the frame queue, for example, allowing for an earlier view of enemies during sniping, but Reflex2 only makes the post-operation visual feedback faster, and it cannot see enemies earlier than Reflex1, which is not helpful for competitive games, but should be very effective in 3A games after frame interpolation.

Reflex2, being a /different/ kind of framegen (reprojection/warping), may eventually also extend to Reflex3 or Reflex4 modifying between-frame enemy positionals. Eventually it will be faster for a GPU to 'edit' an existing photorealistic frame than to render it from scratch, reducing latency of enemy visibility updates, and turning framegen into an esports technology (by ~2030).

Framegen is very controversial, but it doubles as a motion blur reduction technology, ala Blur Busters namesake. People who get headsplitting migraines from strobing (ULMB, BFI, etc) can use framegen instead as a blur busting technology.

4x framegen = 75% display motion blur reductdion on OLEDs
10x framegen = 90% display motion blur reduction on OLEDs

So, it provides the holy grail of CRT motion clarity without flicker/impulsing -- for people who get headaches from motion blur and from flicker -- and therefore framegen can be an Accessibility Feature for some of us medically.

Yes, fake frames.
Yes, prefer original frames.
But it's useful to understand why some of us depend on extreme framerates; and why some of us cannot play some games -- framegen is why some are playing Cyberpunk 2077 for the first time. (because it was formerly impossible to reduce motion blur of Cyberpunk 2077 to over 200fps+ via framerate-based blur busting method), e.g. headache migraines at 60-120fps and needing 200-500fps+ to have low blur without BFI/strobe modes.

Those mysterious "I cannot play games because I get motion sick". Bingo -- some of this is solved by fixing blur AND flicker simultaneously (ultrahigh framerates on ultrahigh Hz OLEDs etc). Yes, some of it is due to other causes (vertigo etc) but some causes of simulator sickness is traced to multiple triggers (blurs, stroboscopics, flicker, etc).

Blur Busters is a longtime beacon; real life doesn't flicker to reduce real life motion blur, because real life has infinite framerate, and it's hard to brute that without framegen. Catch-22 deal with devil for some, mind you.

[Chief Blur Buster]

It doesn't change the fact that it still has horrific latency along with ghosting/smearing to it. I'd much rather have actual frames. Jenson is appealing to shareholders and investors up on stage, not gamers.

See my above post about framegen being an Accessibility Feature for some people.

It's far better than TAA which destroys motion quality, and the quality of framegen frames are improved over DLSS3.5 -- down to about 0.1% of the artifacts of a 2010-era Sony Motionflow TV interpolation system.

Now, that being said, framegen IS a pick-poison choice, but it IS far better than TAA and other ugly band-aids for high-framerate photorealistic imagery.

Reading between the lines and AI hype, there's a lot of gigantically Blur Busting features in large-ratio framegen tech (e.g. 10x framegen = 90% less motion blur without BFI or strobe backlights that create more eyestrain). The giant increase in temporal resolution is starting to massively outweigh the spatial-resolution loss (e.g. spatial blurring that is now getting more and more minor).

It's like MPEG1 moving to MPEG2 moving to MPEG4 moving to H.265 moving to H.266 at the same bitrate as the original MPEG1 file;

We play all blur busting games though -- user choice -- that's why I have the CRT simulator, www.blurbusters.com/crt and Open Source Display www.blurbusters.com/open-source-display (I'm releasing a Plasma TV shader later this year or early next).

[whitestar]

Framegen is very controversial, but it doubles as a motion blur reduction technology, ala Blur Busters namesake. People who get headsplitting migraines from strobing (ULMB, BFI, etc) can use framegen instead as a blur busting technology.

4x framegen = 75% display motion blur reductdion on OLEDs
10x framegen = 90% display motion blur reduction on OLEDs

So, it provides the holy grail of CRT motion clarity without flicker/impulsing -- for people who get headaches from motion blur and from flicker -- and therefore framegen can be an Accessibility Feature for some of us medically.

Thank you! I've been meaning to ask about this since I got my new LG G4 TV. With the Smooth Motion setting activated (which is the LG way of saying motion interpolation) I noticed that just about all motion blur (persistence blur, I gather) disappeared! It looks fantastic in my eyes, and I'm sensitive to these things. Now, with this setting there is a considerable input lag, but still it was exciting to see.

So with DLSS 4 multi-framegen and Reflex 2 this could be pretty exciting I think.

I'm wondering how persistence blur will look with 4x framegen at say 75 fps compared to Viewsonic XG2431 BFI at 75 fps. I've read that framegen doesn't support vsync, but that you can still activate vsync in the Nvidia drivers, albeit at a latency/lag cost?

[RealNC]

I'm wondering how persistence blur will look with 4x framegen at say 75 fps compared to Viewsonic XG2431 BFI at 75 fps. I've read that framegen doesn't support vsync, but that you can still activate vsync in the Nvidia drivers, albeit at a latency/lag cost?

It works fine with both vsync and g-sync. G-sync + FPS capping is highly recommended for frame gen to get low input lag.

[whitestar]

It works fine with both vsync and g-sync. G-sync + FPS capping is highly recommended for frame gen to get low input lag.

Thanks! According to RTings my XG2431 only supports G-sync over displayport, so I would have to switch cables every time I was going from my triple screen setup (for sim-racing) to my XG2431 (since my 3080 has 3 DP and 1 HDMI). So it will have to be HDMI and vsync then.
Unless some kind of displayport switcher exists.

[RealNC]

Thanks! According to RTings my XG2431 only supports G-sync over displayport, so I would have to switch cables every time I was going from my triple screen setup (for sim-racing) to my XG2431 (since my 3080 has 3 DP and 1 HDMI). So it will have to be HDMI and vsync then.
Unless some kind of displayport switcher exists.

You can connect DP and HDMI on the same display at the same time. You can then switch between them through the monitor's OSD.

I don't know if that's possible with your setup though, since you have three screens already, and connecting it through both DP and HDMI would actually make the system think you're now using 4 displays...

[NDUS]

I don't know if this will still be the case after the update(s?), but currently, AMD FSR Framegen is reliably ~5ms lower latency than DLSS Framegen, on Nvidia cards. I found this whilst doing latency testing with a 4090, googled it thinking I must be making a mistake, and apparently it is known widely. Apparently FSR Framegen also produces significantly higher framerates when FPS is high. (DLSS framegen is not really 2x, you can expect jumps like 300fps > 400fps whilst FSR framegen is closer to a real 2x and at the same quality level.)
Hope their new implementation is better.

[Chief Blur Buster]

I'm wondering how persistence blur will look with 4x framegen at say 75 fps compared to Viewsonic XG2431 BFI at 75 fps. I've read that framegen doesn't support vsync, but that you can still activate vsync in the Nvidia drivers, albeit at a latency/lag cost?

Framerate-based motion blur reduction is still difficult.

Motion blur = pulsetime on strobed. It's easy to have a brief flash strobe backlight.
Motion blur = frametime on sample hold. It's difficult to have 10x framerate for 90% motion blur reduction.

You WILL get a lot less motion blur with XG2431 -- one of the most user-tunable LCD strobe backlights in the world with the most generous refresh rate range -- but as with practically all strobe backlights, you get flicker & not as good colors & more stroboscopic effects.

If the MAGNITUDE of motion blur reduction is #1 priority, nothing beats a strobe backlight at the moment.
0.5ms flash = 1/2000sec motion blur = requires 2000fps 2000Hz to equal.
The Quest VR headsets flicker at 0.3ms pulsewidth, you need 3333fps 3333Hz to match that without needing flicker.

But, with framerate-based motion blur reduction:
- You get full color gamut
- You get HDR
- You get easier VRR availability
- You avoid double image effects of low frame rates (you simply temporarily get more motion blur)

The nice thing is that the venn diagram overlaps.
- Early strobe backlights like LightBoost had 2.4ms MPRT
- Newer 480fps 480Hz OLED has 1/480sec MPRT = 2.09ms MPRT

So today, the best framerate-based motion blur reduction now gets you clearer motion than early strobe backlights, without the disadvantages of strobe backlights.

That's WHY framegen, a double edged sword, is so important to blur busting, for our subsegment of audience who are flicker-haters and strobe-haters. Those fake frames, a pick poison compromise deal with devil, are still getting better -- and besides you're faking real life with triangles, textures and polygons anyway; and sometimes you get smaller difference margins versus real life framegenning photorealism instead of lowering detail / enabling TAA to get the same said framerate.

Perspective FTW!



FYI, XG2431 can strobe at 0.25ms pulsewidths but it also loses a lot of brightness doing that. You have a significant brightness-vs-blur compromise with shorter pulsewidths. One user recently did publish a ISET hack to make XG2431 brighter does help (at the risk of overvoltage-damage or life shortening to the monitor backlight) for advanced users who wish to take the risk. Usually you can get by with ~1ms MPRT while still being sufficiently bright -- but you can still get brighter with a 480Hz OLED.

There's approximately a ~2:1 to ~4:1 motion blur preference to using framerate based motion blur reduction for some people, where some people prefers 3ms MPRT via framegen-blurbusting method, rather than 1ms MPRT via strobe-blurbusting method.

Choose your blurbusting weapon carefully.

Within a few months (maybe a few weeks!), I will be publishing a "Dawn of Blurless Sample & Hold: Deciding Between Flicker Based vs Framerate Based Blur Busting" article this year, given the newfound popularity of framerate-based blur busting thanks to recently available large-ratio framegen and OLEDs making it a blatantly obvious blur busting solution.

Large ratio framegen was less visible on LCD due to nonzero GtG (you don't want 1ms GtG before/after your 2ms MPRT), but the OLED refresh rate bullet train combined with large-ratio framegen, has dawned a new age of (nearly) blurless sample & hold.

[whitestar]

But, with framerate-based motion blur reduction:
- You get full color gamut
- You get HDR
- You get easier VRR availability
- You avoid double image effects of low frame rates (you simply temporarily get more motion blur)

Thanks for the comprehensive answer! My eyes can get used to pretty much everything it seems. Lower brightness, ghosting, worse colors. The only thing they can't seem to get used to is the motion blur. So yeah, I guess magnitude is priority #1, at least for now.

That doesn't mean at all that I'm dismissing those bullet points I quoted you on here. I'll have to turn off MBR on my monitor to test framegen when I get my hands on a 50xx. Just wish I could test it on an OLED monitor as well, since the results there will be significantly better as I understand it.

[lann]

A question is, Reflex1 can actually reduce latency by reducing the frame queue, for example, allowing for an earlier view of enemies during sniping, but Reflex2 only makes the post-operation visual feedback faster, and it cannot see enemies earlier than Reflex1, which is not helpful for competitive games, but should be very effective in 3A games after frame interpolation.

It is helpful in competitive games as well, because visual feedback and mouse feel are important. If you add mouse lag to your game, which won't affect how soon you see enemies, only how soon the camera responds to your mouse movements, you're gonna be playing worse.

You are right; even if reflex warp doesn't allow you to see the enemy behind the wall probe faster, faster visual feedback when aiming can improve competitive level